The Heresy of Annihilationism

[Pilgrimshope]

Then God cannot be "all in all" can He? You're claiming an "all in most" reality. And that is makes sense to torture a person forever who lived in sin for maybe 100 years.

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.( in the second death ) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We literally see the end of death and hell at the final judgement thats not part of the new creation it’s pet of the current heaven and earth we live in now all of it has an end

 

[tourist]

There is also outer darkness ... endless

...something about weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

...something about weeping and gnashing of teeth.

“And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Unforgiveness leads there

 

[PennEd]

It was in the verse I quoted.

No it wasn't. Provide the translation where it says "THEN HIS REIGN IS COMPLETE".
Most of the rest is your thoughts on the passage.

Here are verses saying God the Father and the God the Son will reign forever.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are separate yet ONE.


The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

 

[Aaron56]

Here are verses saying God the Father and the God the Son will reign forever.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

The world that is about to pass away?

What about the world to come in the age that arrives after Christ delivers up all authority to God and God is “all in all”?

Do you think, for example, the gospel of salvation will still be needed when God is all in all? Baptisms? Preaching? Revelation? The Bible?

 

[PennEd]

What about the world to come in the age that arrives after Christ delivers up all authority to God and God is “all in all”?

Who is sitting on the Throne in the New heaven and New Earth?

Revelation 21
New King James Version
All Things Made New
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Revelation 22
Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”


Jesus IS God. The Father IS God. The Holy Spirit IS God.

 

[Aaron56]

Who is sitting on the Throne in the New heaven and New Earth?

Revelation 21
New King James Version
All Things Made New
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Revelation 22
Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”


Jesus IS God. The Father IS God. The Holy Spirit IS God.

Of course this is true.

"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"

Interesting wording, huh?

When you are a king, and all that is left is you, over what do you reign? Remember: I am not the one claiming that people being tortured in fire for eternity is part of God's eternal character.

I get that these are not Sunday School questions but give it a shot.

 

[PennEd]

Of course this is true.

"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"

Interesting wording, huh?

When you are a king, and all that is left is you, over what do you reign? Remember: I am not the one claiming that people being tortured in fire for eternity is part of God's eternal character.

I get that these are not Sunday School questions but give it a shot.

We think of eternity as a loooooooooooooooooooooot of time.

But what is also true is it a state of being.
Jesus, several times, describes that some are going to suffer worse punishment than others.
If ALL lost are annihilated, then they all receive the same measure of punishment. This violates Scripture.

Matthew 23:14

New King James Version

14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive GREATER CONDEMNATION.

Matthew 11
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

These are people awaiting final judgement. What, will be MORE, or LESS tolerable?

 

[Beckie]

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[Aaron56]

We think of eternity as a loooooooooooooooooooooot of time.


Jesus, several times, describes that some are going to suffer worse punishment than others.
If ALL lost are annihilated, then they all receive the same measure of punishment. This violates Scripture.

So the Lake of Fire has different heat settings? Like Low-Medium-High?

No, of course not.

And, do you wonder why cities are mentioned (Tyre, Sidon) and not people? Certainly people are judged according to their own merits and not regionally. Yet cites are the main subjects of the passage.

What is being said is that the exposure and open shame will be greater (in number) than will be in other areas: all things are revealed in the Judgement and laid open for all to behold.

The reference for this is in 1 Corinthians:

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So, the fire (not the Lake of Fire) will test every person's nature.

And, for further understanding: judgement is not punishment. Judgement is simply the revealing of what is true. Sentencing and punishment follow the judgement.

You have not addressed the character of God in the age to come. God is "all in all". Are you saying God is in those who are burning forever in the fire? And in the demons?

 

[PennEd]

And, do you wonder why cities are mentioned (Tyre, Sidon) and not people? Certainly people are judged according to their own merits and not regionally. Yet cites are the main subjects of the passage.

What is being said is that the exposure and open shame will be greater (in number) than will be in other areas: all things are revealed in the Judgement and laid open for all to behold.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

It's going to be MORE tolerable for one patch of land vs. another!?

Of course the passage is talking about people!

Why have a judgement at all?

"you lied, and didn't believe the Gospel. Into the annihilating fire ya go".
"you murdered a thousand people, and didn't believe the Gospel, Into the annihilating fire ya go".

I have no idea what exactly the differing degrees of punishment will be, but it's certainly will be more tolerable for some, and less tolerable for others.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So, the fire (not the Lake of Fire) will test every person's nature.

This is the judgement seat of Christ for believers.
Just as the lost will have different positions of suffering, the saved will have different rewards and positions in the Kingdom.


This passage really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

 

[Aaron56]

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

It's going to be MORE tolerable for one patch of land vs. another!?

Of course the passage is talking about people!

Why have a judgement at all?

"you lied, and didn't believe the Gospel. Into the annihilating fire ya go".
"you murdered a thousand people, and didn't believe the Gospel, Into the annihilating fire ya go".

I have no idea what exactly the differing degrees of punishment will be, but it's certainly will be more tolerable for some, and less tolerable for others.



This is the judgement seat of Christ for believers.
Just as the lost will have different positions of suffering, the saved will have different rewards and positions in the Kingdom.


This passage really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Of course land is not judged. That was my point. It's people.

The "more tolerable" corresponds to the number of those who are condemned, not some differing degree of punishment. Only a corrupt mind could find degrees of preference in "burning in a Lake of Fire forever".

However, you mean to tell me, being face to face with the Creator whom you rejected, having your sins exposed to all creation, and being thrown into the fire to be destroyed is not sufficient punishment for someone who lived, what, 19 years?

Sounds like you want retribution not judgement.

Still, God is "all in all" after the judgement. Is He in the sinners who are burning? Is He in the demons who are burning? Is he in the curses of the damned, too? You have yet to address this.

I'll give it that you might have never considered it and that you wish to stick to the Sunday School level of understanding Hell, Heaven, and Judgement. Most do. But then kindly admit you'll stick to your own opinion and move on.

 

[PennEd]

The "more tolerable" corresponds to the number of those who are condemned, not some differing degree of punishment.

Says who?

EVERY SINGLE person perished at Sodom. Not 5 righteous was found.

So how is it going to be more tolerable for Sodom!

However, you mean to tell me, being face to face with the Creator whom you rejected, having your sins exposed to all creation, and being thrown into the fire to be destroyed is not sufficient punishment for someone who lived, what, 19 years?

This is exactly an argument an theist would use. Anihilation.

Sounds like you want retribution not judgement.

Yes.

Romans 12:19

New King James Version

19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Still, God is "all in all" after the judgement. Is He in the sinners who are burning? Is He in the demons who are burning? Is he in the curses of the damned, too? You have yet to address this.

I'm addressing it by saying it's silly, and has no relation to those in hell.

God can be all in all and NOT in hell, or the abyss.


I'll grant you may not have considered that. But now that you have been enlightened, you should repent. ESPECIALLY given the silly nonsense that "More tolerable" refers to the NUMBER of people, and not the type of suffering.

 

[Aaron56]

God can be all in all and NOT in hell, or the abyss.

You meant "Lake of Fire", right? Because Hell is also cast into the Lake of Fire. See how Sunday School lessons get all jumbled when we don't consider them?

EVERY SINGLE person perished at Sodom. Not 5 righteous was found.

But there could have been 4, correct?

Aaron56 said: "Sounds like you want retribution not judgement."

to which PennEd replied

Yes

Then quotes a verse about wrath (not final Judgement) that states vengeance is the Lord's, only.

Quoted for posterity.



It finally dawned on me why you can't accept it: you would not know how to proselytize without scaring people with the "Lake of Fire" and threatening them with eternal torment.

It's typical for the evangelist church to know what God is not, but have very little understanding about who God is.

This is my last reply to you on this subject.

 

[PennEd]

You meant "Lake of Fire", right? Because Hell

Yep.

I'm fully aware of the difference between Gehenna, Hades, Sheol,
Abraham's Bosom, and Tartarus.

Imagine that! Christians who actually study their Bible!
Guess you don't have a monopoly on that.

But there could have been 4, correct?

Aaron56 said: "Sounds like you want retribution not judgement."

to which PennEd replied

Yep. Disingenuous to the point however. You were saying that God wouldn't seek differing punishment, retribution and revenge. I posted where God wants EXACTLY that.

Then quotes a verse about wrath (not final Judgement) that states vengeance is the Lord's, only.

Yep. God's wrath is not limited to what He does on Earth, but also to unrepentant sinners at the judgement.

It finally dawned on me why you can't accept it: you would not know how to proselytize without scaring people with the "Lake of Fire" and threatening them with eternal torment.

Nope. Wrong again! Boy, you're really battin a thousand!
Can't remember a SINGLE time I've ever presented the Gospel and even mentioned hell.
I usually tell them how Jesus has changed my life, and made me capable of loving others.
Even You!

This is my last reply to you on this subject.

I don't blame you.
After getting thoroughly defeated on a doctrine you hold dearly, why ask for more?

But we'll see if you are a man of your word.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

This is my last reply to you on this subject.

Amen. Great to see a thread with 415 posts that is not "dead horse Beaten"
unlike those with 4,000 +, eh?

Finally, to avoid The Second Death, one can humbly receive:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, Correct?

And then live life In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

RICH Blessings!

 

[Aaron56]

Amen. Great to see a thread with 415 posts that is not "dead horse Beaten"
unlike those with 4,000 +, eh?

Finally, to avoid The Second Death, one can humbly receive:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, Correct?

And then live life In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

RICH Blessings!

Amen.

I should start all my discussions with:

"Did you ever vote for Trump?"

If the answer is "yes" then I know they cannot even listen to reason let alone the heed the leading of the Spirit.

 

[PennEd]

Amen.

I should start all my discussions with:

"Did you ever vote for Trump?"

If the answer is "yes" then I know they cannot even listen to reason let alone the heed the leading of the Spirit.

This is about all ya need to know about this guy.

Quite the judger!!

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I don't think being scared into salvation is a distasteful idea. (The annhilationist melodrama )
That God will save people even on those terms is a testament to his merciful goodness. Plenty of Christians come to Jesus in that way.

A former drug user who realised he would have killed himself if he continued with the drugs can be described as being
" scared straight". Not a foreign concept in the human experience.

"If you continue in that direction you will fall of a cliff " is a fair warning, not a method of terrorisation.
Pretending there is no cliff at all doesn't help anyone heading toward it.

 

[PennEd]

I don't think being scared into salvation is a distasteful idea. (The annhilationist melodrama )
That God will save people even on those terms is a testament to his merciful goodness. Plenty of Christians come to Jesus in that way.

A former drug user who realised he would have killed himself if he continued with the drugs can be described as being
" scared straight". Not a foreign concept in the human experience.

"If you continue in that direction you will fall of a cliff " is a fair warning, not a method of terrorisation.
Pretending there is no cliff at all doesn't help anyone heading toward it.

Yes.
Jude 1:23

“And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.”