Are you saying that you believe it's all about Jesus and what he accomplished? And yet, you believe....
Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Are you saying that you believe it's all about Jesus and what he accomplished? And yet, you believe....
People who believe Jesus Christ died for all mankind and that God desires the salvation of all mankind believe what the Bible says (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11).
You don't.
I'm not talking about any of that. I'm looking for an simple answer. Is God just if He accepts a payment for a debt but still requires some to pay the debt anyway?
To this point, those who have responded have changed the question to being about everything but justice. I'm only interested in whether it is just for God or anyone else to accept the payment for a debt and still require the debt to be paid by the original debtor.
Can you answer only that question and only concern yourself with the question of justice?
I understand your intentions. To reach your conclusion, a dichotomous representation of the actual offering must be presented that doesn't provide any allowance of God's mercy as factoring into the equation of it. Going by His justice, all would die, and going by His mercy, all would live. Justice and Mercy meet on the cross.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” If a person does not believe, then they have chosen not to accept the payment, and they are judged in their original, sinful condition.
My only intention is truth. I am isolating justice so I can understand God more fully so that I can live a life more glorifying to Him.
That God is just has implications. You mention mercy. Can God forgive sins simply because He is merciful. If He is not just the answer is yes. If the answer is no, then a substitutionary payment is necessary...hence, the cross. Forgiveness of sins is predicated upon the justice of God.
It makes no difference to me whether everyone's sins are paid for or not personally. I'm trying to ask objectively, if God is indeed just, what does that mean?
No, man does not have to pay the debt of sin, Jesus paid it all. For one to have their debt canceled, one must believe. The work has already been accomplished.
It is in it's proper context. If meant only the elect it would say only the elect.
How can both be true?
Either Jesus paid for their sins or He didn't.
First you say He paid for everyone's sins and now He hasn't.
Their sins were paid for but not applied to them because they did not believe. Unto all and upon all that believe.
I think a deep dive is needed on this. If anyone doesn't mind I believe I will start a new thread if anyone cares to meet me there.
Thanks for your honesty. So, is God just? In other words, is it just to require a payment, accept the payment, and still require payment?
I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong. I'm asking questions to see if 2 things can be true at the same time.I think a deep dive is needed on this. If anyone doesn't mind I believe I will start a new thread if anyone cares to meet me there.