Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[cv5]

Yes. Just like Esau and as all of the unsaved are.

[Rom 9:11 KJV] 11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
[Rom 9:13 KJV] 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

I really do not want to engage in this controversy and this theory of yours.
But I have to chime in and say.....you are dead wrong about God NOT LOVING the world, HATING sinners etc etc.

God intervened on Adam's behalf in Gen 3 because He hated him? Ridiculous.
God revealed Himself to Abraham, and gave him profound promises because He hated Him? Ridiculous.
God sent Jonah to Nineveh because He hated them? Ridiculous.
God led, fed protected and cared for the children of Israel and bore their burdens for 40 years because He hated them? Ridiculous.
God gave the Canaanites 400 years to repent because God hated them? Ridiculous.
God sent prophets to Israel for hundreds of years guiding and warning them because he hated them? Ridiculous.
God sent His beloved Son to die for us while we were yet sinners because he hates us? Ridiculous.
Jesus said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" because He hated the Jews? Ridiculous.

I and anyone else could go on ad infinitum.

I urge you to drop that line of thought. It is dangerous.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Ha, now you all see why rogerg makes me wanna PUKE!

 

[rogerg]

Jesus did not say whoever is born again will believe and have eternal life. again, the passage does not fit with what you are saying, it would have been worded different

Eternal life is the act of being born again, and this new birth is forever.


I never said they give themselves spiritual life. That is God

God is here, and saying here is my gift of life. If you would like, I will raise you up. if you do not want it. I will allow you to stay dead.

Again, he gave us the example. those who looked up in faith was given new life. those who did not died..

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

God did not make the people with moses alive so they could look up and live. They had to chose.

They did not save themselves. they all were bitten, and would have died, Jesus healed them and raised up up..



Yes. They were raised why? Because their sins were forgiven, Justification must come first.. we are justified through faith.. God will not rise us up when we are still under the penalty of sin..

I don't understand your comment of "Eternal life is the act of being born again"?

According to you, someone has to say yes to God's offer, but how can someone do that (with which I disagree), since they would already have to have life in order to know that they want/need it? Otherwise, they would not know they're missing it. IOW, how does a dead person come to realize they're dead?

Regarding John 3:14 - 17, we've already been through all of that. The "whoever believes" are only those who have been given the Holy Spirit that they believe. It does not include everyone.

As for Moses and the serpent, those who looked upon it, God used as being symbolic of true believers. Only those who have been given the Holy Spirit, with His fruit, truly believe ( that looked upon the serpent). Notice the verses says, "when they beheld the serpent", not "if they beheld upon the serpent".

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes. Just like Esau and as all of the unsaved are.

[Rom 9:11 KJV] 11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
[Rom 9:13 KJV] 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Talk about not understanding scripture.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't understand your comment of "Eternal life is the act of being born again"?

According to you, someone has to say yes to God's offer, but how can someone do that (with which I disagree), since they would already have to have life in order to know that they want/need it? Otherwise, they would not know they're missing it. IOW, how does a dead person come to realize they're dead?

Being born again is being risen from the dead. Or given life. who whoever believes shall never die. but has life.. the3 length of life is eternity. hence the words eternal life.

How does the dead person realise they are dead? Lets see. God uses the word. The HS and other people to help draw them to him, and lead them to this know;ledge which gives them the ability to repent.. or the ability to remain in unbelief and stay dead.

No one will have an excuse..

Regarding John 3:14 - 17, we've already been through all of that. The "whoever believes" are only those who have been given the Holy Spirit that they believe. It does not include everyone.

That is not what the passage says. you are adding to the passage..

As for Moses and the serpent, those who looked upon it, God used as being symbolic of true believers. Only those who have been given the Holy Spirit, with His fruit, truly believe ( that looked upon the serpent). Notice the verses says, "when they beheld the serpent", not "if they beheld upon the serpent".

again, it does not fit..

Your right, the example is believers. who was given life? those who chose in faith to look up.. There was no holy spirit and they were not raised or healed UNTIL they looked up in faith.

 

[cv5]

Yes. Just like Esau and as all of the unsaved are.

[Rom 9:11 KJV] 11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
[Rom 9:13 KJV] 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

BTW.....the descendants of Esau were and are being saved to this present day. Evidenced by the fact there are Christians in Jordan today.
Gods grace overcomes all obstacles.

 

[rogerg]

God intervened on Adam's behalf in Gen 3 because He hated him? Ridiculous.

Just to be clear, I said that God hates the unsaved in the spiritual sense, not in the human or physical sense.

That was because Adam was of the elect. God Himself clothed him with skins, meaning that God covered his transgression.

[Gen 3:21 KJV] 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

God revealed Himself to Abraham, and gave him profound promises because He hated Him? Ridiculous.

He gave Abraham the promises because He saved Abraham. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS by God. From that did he receive the promises.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

God sent Jonah to Nineveh because He hated them? Ridiculous.

They of Nineveh repented because they were symbolic of the saved.

God led, fed protected and cared for the children of Israel and bore their burdens for 40 years because He hated them? Ridiculous.

Again, that was in the physical sense that He took care of them. Except for those born of Joshua's generation, none were allowed to enter into the promised land. Regarding the Jews of Moses, God tells us that He gave them "judgments whereby they should not live" Does that sound like God loved them?

[Eze 20:23-25 KJV]
23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Look, I'm not going to go through all of the rest. You are confusing God's care given in the physical realm with it
on the spiritual - big difference.

 

[rogerg]

Being born again is being risen from the dead. Or given life. who whoever believes shall never die. but has life.. the3 length of life is eternity. hence the words eternal life.

How does the dead person realise they are dead? Lets see. God uses the word. The HS and other people to help draw them to him, and lead them to this know;ledge which gives them the ability to repent.. or the ability to remain in unbelief and stay dead.

No one will have an excuse..

Unsaved man can ever of themselves (nor of anyone else besides God) come to correct spiritual understanding UNLESS and UNTIL they are given the Holy Spirit.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

That is not what the passage says. you are adding to the passage..

No, you are. The "whosoever(s)" are they who believe. True belief is only through the Holy Spirit as I have posted to you numerous times.

Your right, the example is believers. who was given life? those who chose in faith to look up.. There was no holy spirit and they were not raised or healed UNTIL they looked up in faith.

There was always a Holy Spirit active and present in both OT and NT.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[rogerg]

BTW.....the descendants of Esau were and are being saved to this present day. Evidenced by the fact there are Christians in Jordan today.
Gods grace overcomes all obstacles.

Again, Esau was used by God to demonstrate the spiritual. People are saved (or not) only because they are of the elect and not because of their physical linage.

 

[cv5]

Just to be clear, I said that God hates the unsaved in the spiritual sense, not in the human or physical sense.

That was because Adam was of the elect. God Himself clothed him with skins, meaning that God covered his transgression.

[Gen 3:21 KJV] 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.



He gave Abraham the promises because He saved Abraham. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS by God. From that did he receive the promises.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.



They of Nineveh repented because they were symbolic of the saved.



Again, that was in the physical sense that He took care of them. Except for those born of Joshua's generation, none were allowed to enter into the promised land. Regarding the Jews of Moses, God tells us that He gave them "judgments whereby they should not live" Does that sound like God loved them?

[Eze 20:23-25 KJV]
23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Look, I'm not going to go through all of the rest. You are confusing God's care given in the physical realm with it
on the spiritual - big difference.

So your conclusion is that the God, who is love, in fact HATES everybody until they become perfectly righteous and holy after the resurrection.

Ridiculous.

I truly believe that Jesus LOVED even Judas and held out the offer of salvation to him up to the bitter end.

 

[cv5]

Talk about not understanding scripture.

You take a couple of passages out of context, misapply them, distort the meaning.....and presto the horrific heresy that God is a God of hate is born.

Sickening.

 

[rogerg]

o your conclusion is that the God, who is love, in fact HATES everybody until they become perfectly righteous and holy after the resurrection.

Ridiculous.

I truly believe that Jesus LOVED even Judas and held out the offer of salvation to him up to the bitter end.

Oh my!

[Rom 9:11, 13 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ...
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

[Mar 14:21 KJV]
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

 

[cv5]

Again, Esau was used by God to demonstrate the spiritual. People are saved (or not) only because they are of the elect and not because of their physical linage.

So how do you extrapolate that God hates the world and everybody in it from that theory?

 

[cv5]

[Mar 14:21 KJV]
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

That is a statement of JUDGEMENT upon the unrepentant. Which Judas was. And such judgement is far beyond our purview.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Unsaved man can ever of themselves (nor of anyone else besides God) come to correct spiritual understanding UNLESS and UNTIL they are given the Holy Spirit.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


No, you are. The "whosoever(s)" are they who believe. True belief is only through the Holy Spirit as I have posted to you numerous times.



There was always a Holy Spirit active and present in both OT and NT.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

we will have to agree to disagree..

how you can look at john 3 and still believe this way is beyond me. But we will leave it as it is.

Thank you

 

[cv5]

Just to be clear, I said that God hates the unsaved in the spiritual sense, not in the human or physical sense.

That was because Adam was of the elect. God Himself clothed him with skins, meaning that God covered his transgression.

[Gen 3:21 KJV] 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.



He gave Abraham the promises because He saved Abraham. Abraham's faith was reckoned to him FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS by God. From that did he receive the promises.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.



They of Nineveh repented because they were symbolic of the saved.



Again, that was in the physical sense that He took care of them. Except for those born of Joshua's generation, none were allowed to enter into the promised land. Regarding the Jews of Moses, God tells us that He gave them "judgments whereby they should not live" Does that sound like God loved them?

[Eze 20:23-25 KJV]
23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Look, I'm not going to go through all of the rest. You are confusing God's care given in the physical realm with it
on the spiritual - big difference.

Here is God's commandment of love for us. TO LOVE THE SAME WAY GOD LOVES.

Mat 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate G3404 you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[rogerg]

So how do you extrapolate that God hates the world and everybody in it from that theory?

[2Pe 3:11-13 KJV]
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Rev 20:15 KJV] 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Runningman]

This I got saved and now I can live like the devil is the greatest message Satan ever preached.

Look at how many believe in that?

people really truly believe that will all of their heart and churches are teaching it. It’s very concerning. I’ve been told by someone here on this board I’m allowed to sin as much as I want. It’s anti-Christ in essence.

 

[rogerg]

Here is God's commandment of love for us. TO LOVE THE SAME WAY GOD LOVES.

Mat 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate G3404 you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rom 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

"for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

That exactly my point - that God provides for the elect and non-elect alike in the physical realm. My point
was regarding the spiritual realm not the physical realm - they are different.

The verses you provided are directed toward those who are of the saved. They explain how the saved are to treat the unsaved.
They have nothing to do with, nor do they affect, whether or not any of them will become saved.

 

[rogerg]

That is a statement of JUDGEMENT upon the unrepentant. Which Judas was. And such judgement is far beyond our purview.

I don't understand your point?