Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Papermonkey]

The word for natural is psuchikos, and it means things pertaining to soul, or soulish. It is things pertaining to the world. People who think about things of the world don't think about spiritual things, even regard them as foolish. People can change what they think about. People can become humble, and choose to think about God.

Contradicting 1Corinthians 2:14 isn't the proof I requested.

Paul's letter of 1 Corinthians 2 and 3 defines three mindsets. The natural man, mind. psuchicos, in the koine Greek.
The spiritual mind,man, pneumatikos, and the carnal body of flesh, sarkinois1 Corinthians 3.

When God tells us the natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to him, does God the creator know what he's talking about?

We've all witnessed or know those who cast aspersions upon our faith.
Even Jesus reported followers who left his fold. And of them Jesus said, they did so because they were not one with us. They didn't understand.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

When Jesus said unless we are born again we cannot see the kingdom of God, how can we insist we can understand the things of God in our fallen,carnal,natural minded, unredeemed,state?

Jesus told his disciples ,
“to you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

Jesus taught in parables and fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah.

''Given to understand.'' Notice Jesus did not say, make a choice to understand.

Matthew 13
''10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.''

 

[VARob]

God does have his way in all things.

No He doesn't. He wanted Israel to stay faithful. They didn't. There are scads of examples where God did not "get His way."

If God had His way, none of us would sin.

All of the people, in the scriptures you have referenced, are spiritual Israel, and already have the promise of eternal inheritance.

Salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, and save=deliver, according to Strong's concordance.

1 Tim 2:4 - There is a deliverance from ignorance, when men of spiritual Israel mature enough to come unto a knowledge of the truth. This also harmonizes with Rom 10:1-3.

2 Pet 3:9 - Peter is speaking to those that have obtained like precious faith (2 Pet 1:1), even including himself by using the word "USWARD", Warning them that when they commit a sin, it separates them from fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent.

Perish=death=separation. John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

Ezk 33:11 - The wicked referred to in this verse are the disobedient house of Israel who have lost their fellowship with God, in verse 14 it says that if they repent, they shall live (regain their fellowship).

I am somewhat familiar with your beliefs, Forest. I disagree.

Your attempt to give the natural man the ability to respond to the things of the Spirit fails again, because you have been indoctrinated to believe in eternal deliverance by works.

I don't believe in eternal deliverance by works.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus was speaking to and about His disciples.

But your position was that people choose God, before God chooses them.

 

[VARob]

Contradicting 1Corinthians 2:14 isn't the proof I requested.

I didn't.

Paul's letter of 1 Corinthians 2 and 3 defines three mindsets. The natural man, mind. psuchicos, in the koine Greek.
The spiritual mind,man, pneumatikos, and the carnal body of flesh, sarkinois1 Corinthians 3.

When God tells us the natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to him, does God the creator know what he's talking about?

We've all witnessed or know those who cast aspersions upon our faith.
Even Jesus reported followers who left his fold. And of them Jesus said, they did so because they were not one with us. They didn't understand.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

When Jesus said unless we are born again we cannot see the kingdom of God, how can we insist we can understand the things of God in our fallen,carnal,natural minded, unredeemed,state?

Jesus told his disciples ,
“to you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

Jesus taught in parables and fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah.

''Given to understand.'' Notice Jesus did not say, make a choice to understand.

Matthew 13
''10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.''

There's really no point in discussing it any more, is there?

If you want to remain thinking that God "does it all," and that you had absolutely nothing to do with you becoming saved, you're free to do so, for now. I'm confident that one day you'll find out you were wrong.

I'm sure you think the same about me. That's ok. Whether a person holds to Calvinism or not is not a salvation issue. I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what matters.

 

[Papermonkey]

I thought about God quite a bit as a non-believer.

Yet, during that time of thought you were still an unbeliever.

 

[Beckie]

What can man do to make his sinful condition acceptable?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No He doesn't. He wanted Israel to stay faithful. They didn't. There are scads of examples where God did not "get His way."

If God had His way, none of us would sin.


I am somewhat familiar with your beliefs, Forest. I disagree.


I don't believe in eternal deliverance by works.

Your failure to understand scripture rests upon the fact that you apply all of the salvation scriptures to eternal salvation.

Salvation=deliverance, according to Strong's concordance.

There are many scriptures that teach the born again experience deliveries, because of their good works, as they sojourn here on earth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What can man do to make his sinful condition acceptable?

Nothing!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Eh? I specifically said, it is the Holy Spirit of God Who opens our eyes to the Truth of that which is being taught.

Sorry, my 88 year old cogs need oiling.

 

[rogerg]

No, the Jews are not replaced by anyone, elect or not. The Jews have been blinded for a time. But they will come to see that Jesus is and was the Messiah all the time. And they will mourn. God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham, and He will fulfill it to the end. His call is irrecoverable. The Jews are the apple of His eye, the chosen, set apart. We have been grafted in but God will still keep His covenant with Israel and the Jewish people.

No they won't - as a nation they never will. Were that true, what would happen to all of the Jews who die before then? They are of the nation of Israel too. You are saying some are saved because they are of Israel, but for that to be correct, all Jews who were ever born also have to be saved because they too are of Israel.
The Jews of the earthly nation of Israel will never become saved just based upon their physical relationship to Israel. The physical seed of Abraham were replaced by the spiritual seed of Abraham- they are the elect and the true Jews. After the divorce, He cannot remarry Israel again because to do so would break the law. If He did, He would then have two wives: the Church AND Israe but we read nothing in the Bible about God having two wives. And without a remarriage, He cannot have a special relationship with Israel.

[Rom 9:8 KJV] 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Gal 3:27-29 KJV]
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Magenta]

Sorry, my 88 year old cogs need oiling.

I will be 68 this month, and know my cognitive abilities are not as they once were.

I doubt I will have 20 more years I hope many of yours have been richly blessed

Will this help?

 

[Papermonkey]

I didn't.

Yes, you did. And do, repeatedly.

There's really no point in discussing it any more, is there?

If you want to remain thinking that God "does it all," and that you had absolutely nothing to do with you becoming saved, you're free to do so, for now. I'm confident that one day you'll find out you were wrong.

I'm sure you think the same about me. That's ok. Whether a person holds to Calvinism or not is not a salvation issue. I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what matters.

I disagree that a person can pick and choose scripture, and abrogate the gospel to their preferred narrative, and then claim they know what Jesus was talking about.
In fact a natural minded person making that effort actually reiterated that Paul's letter to the Corinthians in 2:14 was true.

 

[Papermonkey]

What can man do to make his sinful condition acceptable?

Not a thing.

 

[Papermonkey]

well, one issue is man has taken the word "Elect" and made it "selection".

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/elect/

ELECT

e-lekt':

That is, "chosen," "selected."

In the Old Testament the word represents derivatives of bachar, elegit;

In the New Testament eklektos. It means properly an object or objects of selection.

This primary meaning sometimes passes into that of "eminent," "valuable," "choice"; often thus as a fact, in places where the King James Version uses "chosen" (or "elect") to translate the original (eg. Isaiah 42:1; 1 Peter 2:6). In the King James Version "elect" (or "chosen") is used of Israel as the race selected for special favor and to be the special vehicle of Divine purposes (so 4 times in Apocrypha, Tobit and Ecclus); of the great Servant of Yahweh (compare Luke 23:35; the "Christ of God, his chosen"); compare eminent saints as Jacob, Moses, Rufus (Romans 16:13); "the lady," and her "sister" of 2 Jn; of the holy angels (1 Timothy 5:21); with a possible suggestion of the lapse of other angels. Otherwise, and prevalently in the New Testament, it denotes a human community, also described as believers, saints, the Israel of God; regarded as in some sense selected by Him from among men, objects of His special favor, and correspondingly called to special holiness and service.

See further under ELECTION. In the English versions "elect" is not used as a verb:

"to choose" is preferred; eg. Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4.

 

[rogerg]

If God had His way, everyone would be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11).

God does not make people want Him, He wants people who genuinely want Him.

Mankind, even after the fall, inherently know the difference between good and evil, and can choose between the two (Gen 3:22). This is why people who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ can be fairly judged on Judgment day.

Sorry missed your post until now.

The "all" of Tim 2: 4 does not mean everyone, it means all of whom God had chosen to salvation. These verses explain/define who those are.

[Jhn 6:37-38 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Not sure what you meant by "want Him". No one is saved because they want God - we're saved because God wants us
and chose us. After being saved we definitely become overjoyed that He did.

Mankind does know good and evil but according to man's laws, not according to God's. God's law is that man must believe/trust in Jesus
as the Saviour and in His completed and perfect offering, but that is only given by God as a gift. The "light" in the verse is Christ.

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[Rom 5:15 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[Magenta]

But the reason that you thought about God, was you had already been born again, right?

I can't say I know the answer to that question, but I would lean in the direction of saying no. I was raised in a religious home and education system until high school, but was allowed to quit going to church when I was sixteen because I did not believe. I remember when I was about twenty, meeting a person who had no belief in God, no influence in that direction throughout his upbringing, an atheist, and it struck me as an anomaly. Spiritual things had a great draw with me. I was curious and explored those things which most appealed, and tried to remain open to other possibilities. I knew God revealed Himself through dreams, so I did dream work off and on over the course of decades.But organized religion was a turn off to me, and anything Biblical or related to beliefs in the God the Bible portrayed were anathema. Still, I knew there was something greater and beyond the material realm, and I sought that out.

 

[rogerg]

If you want to remain thinking that God "does it all," and that you had absolutely nothing to do with you becoming saved, you're free to do so, for now. I'm confident that one day you'll find out you were wrong.

When the below verse calls salvation a "free gift" what do you think is meant by that?
Wouldn't a free gift, for it to be truly and completely free, have to mean that God does it all?

[Rom 5:15 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[brightfame52]

That's what I said...

I know what you said, do you know what I said ?

 

[HeIsHere]

And how do you come up with that explanation, according to scripture?

The natural man is not the carnal man, Paul would have used a different word.
We all have a natural side.

The distinction here is not saved and unsaved.

The people in Corinth who were schooled in wisdom/philosophy were trying to understand spiritual things by employing human wisdom, Paul is telling them it will not work.

 

[Papermonkey]

The natural man is not the carnal man, Paul would have used a different word.
We all have a natural side.

The distinction here is not saved and unsaved.

The people in Corinth who were schooled in wisdom/philosophy were trying to understand spiritual things by employing human wisdom, Paul is telling them it will not work.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Who were the Corinthians?
Corinth was a center of trade on the Mediterranean, so was a melting pot of all nationalities that lived and traded in the area. In this way it was much like the U.S.A.. As a result, many different religions were represented in this region, and there were many people of low moral character. It is not really surprising, then, that a number of carnal problems were within the church, as well as the infiltration of philosophies from some of the other religions. Paul addresses some of these issues, such as factions, lawsuits, immorality, abuse of the Lord’s supper, and others. He also answers questions they had about things such as spiritual gifts, church finance, the resurrection, and other.
https://thebiblestop.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/who-were-the-corinthians/