Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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VARob

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rogerg said:
Only the Holy Spirit can teach scripture.
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Acts 8:
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Eph 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
 
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montana123

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rogerg said:
Disagree. A spiritually dead person cannot make a choice to make themselves alive spiritually, just as a physically dead
person cannot make a choice to make themselves alive physically. Dead is dead. God did not choose to say
dead in sin for no reason - He uses words very carefully.
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That is why God has to intervene in a person's life to get them to the truth which they are still dead in sin until they are saved, but they have to make the decision to accept the truth once they know about it for God's kingdom is true love.

If they have no choice in their salvation then God's kingdom is not true love for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

That means the saints are robots and would God want that kind of love.

If you program a robot to say I love you does the robot love you.

We have to have a choice when accepting the truth for how is it be true love if we do not have a choice.

Why would God condemn people to not choose them and they do not have a choice for God is not evil so we have to have a choice in our salvation.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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rogerg said:
Yes, He did:

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
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We all backslid at times, including yourself, if you are truthful, But you do not lose your promise of an inheritance of eternal heaven, just your fellowship with God, temporary, until you repent.

Same thing goes for backsliding Israel. Read farther down in Jer 3, and you will see in verse 14, that God will bring them to Zion.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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Magenta said:
Many teach. Perhaps what you mean is that it is the Holy Spirit of God Who opens our eyes to the Truth of that which is being taught. May seem like a persnickey distinction, and one could ask/argue, is one teaching if learning does not concurrently occur, but we often need to be exposed to something multiple times before we come to a fuller understanding of it. God does equip some to teach, and their competence comes from God.
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But don't you believe that the Holy Spirit, within the person being taught, reveals if the truth is being taught?
 
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rogerg

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VARob said:
Acts 8:
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Eph 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
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Okay, and your point is, what? When someone becomes born-again it may not be immediately obvious to them - that doesn't mean it hasn't already happened - and as a matter of fact, that is usually how it happens. The eunuch was so before or immediately at the time the Holy Spirit sent Phillip to him. Phillip taught to him the gospel, but that knowledge is not what caused him to be saved/born-again. Becoming born-again occurs in the spiritual realm, not in the intellectual realm.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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ForestGreenCook said:
But don't you believe that the Holy Spirit, within the person being taught, reveals if the truth is being taught?
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Eh? I specifically said, it is the Holy Spirit of God Who opens our eyes to the Truth of that which is being taught.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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rogerg said:
Didn't you read the verse I quoted showing God's divorce of Israel'?

[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Those that He "foreknew" are the of the elect, a remnant chosen by grace, not because they are of the nation of Israel

[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[Rom 11:7 KJV] 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
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Blinded, for a time. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews. The rest of that chapter explains that truth.
 
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VARob

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rogerg said:
Okay, and your point is, what?
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Read the post I was responding to.

When someone becomes born-again it may not be immediately obvious to them - that doesn't mean it hasn't already happened - and as a matter of fact, that is usually how it happens. The eunuch was so before or immediately at the time the Holy Spirit sent Phillip to him.
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You're basing that statement on you're belief, not on anything in scripture.

Phillip taught to him the gospel, but that knowledge is not what caused him to be saved/born-again.
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A person must have knowledge of something in order to believe it.

Becoming born-again occurs in the spiritual realm, not in the intellectual realm.
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It's a spiritual event that occurs when a person decides to believe the gospel (Eph 1:13).
 
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rogerg

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montana123 said:
That is why God has to intervene in a person's life to get them to the truth which they are still dead in sin until they are saved, but they have to make the decision to accept the truth once they know about it for God's kingdom is true love.

If they have no choice in their salvation then God's kingdom is not true love for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

That means the saints are robots and would God want that kind of love.

If you program a robot to say I love you does the robot love you.

We have to have a choice when accepting the truth for how is it be true love if we do not have a choice.

Why would God condemn people to not choose them and they do not have a choice for God is not evil so we have to have a choice in our salvation.
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It is of true love for those saved because were it otherwise no one could be saved.
It does not mean saints are robots, it means they were dead and are now alive- they move from death to life, not from
thinking to not thinking.
Salvation (which is given as a gift) is the first time in the saved person's life where he are able to
have true spiritual comprehension. This is because at that time of becoming born-again, the Holy Spirit gives them
a new mind and a new heart.

Here this says it better than I can:

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Luk 1:77-78 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
 
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VARob

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Papermonkey said:
You aren't interpreting 1 Cor 2:14 correctly.
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Prove it.
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The word for natural is psuchikos, and it means things pertaining to soul, or soulish. It is things pertaining to the world. People who think about things of the world don't think about spiritual things, even regard them as foolish. People can change what they think about. People can become humble, and choose to think about God.
 
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rogerg

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
Blinded, for a time. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews. The rest of that chapter explains that truth.
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Gentiles do not replace the Jews of the nation of Israel, the elect do. However, the elect is comprised of people from
all nationalities, kindreds, races, tribes and any other sub-types you can think of - it is inclusive of all, but only by God's
choosing of them individually, not because of earthly linage.
 
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VARob

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rogerg said:
Gentiles do not replace the Jews of the nation of Israel, the elect do. However, the elect is comprised of people from
all nationalities, kindreds, races, tribes and any other sub-types you can think of - it is inclusive of all, but only by God's
choosing of them individually, not because of earthly linage.
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If God had His way, everyone would be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11).

God does not make people want Him, He wants people who genuinely want Him.

Mankind, even after the fall, inherently know the difference between good and evil, and can choose between the two (Gen 3:22). This is why people who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ can be fairly judged on Judgment day.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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montana123 said:
Why would God condemn people to not choose them and they do not have a choice for God is not evil so we have to have a choice in our salvation.
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Rom 9:23 - And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

(24) - Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Rom 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, TO THEM WHO ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. For whom he did foreknow, them he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren, Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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rogerg said:
Gentiles do not replace the Jews of the nation of Israel, the elect do. However, the elect is comprised of people from
all nationalities, kindreds, races, tribes and any other sub-types you can think of - it is inclusive of all, but only by God's
choosing of them individually, not because of earthly linage.
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No, the Jews are not replaced by anyone, elect or not. The Jews have been blinded for a time. But they will come to see that Jesus is and was the Messiah all the time. And they will mourn. God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham, and He will fulfill it to the end. His call is irrecoverable. The Jews are the apple of His eye, the chosen, set apart. We have been grafted in but God will still keep His covenant with Israel and the Jewish people.
 
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rogerg

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VARob said:
You're basing that statement on you're belief, not on anything in scripture.
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It is based upon scripture. As several people have tried to point out, to believe requires a new mind and new heart. That is a
a prerequisite to understanding the gospel. A new mind and heart are given only when born again by God, it is not of ourselves.
As for the eunuch, he had to be born again in order to understand and believe because it requires a new mind and heart to do so.

[Luk 1:77-78 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

VARob said:
A person must have knowledge of something in order to believe it.
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One's belief does not save them. Belief is a fruit of the Spirit that comes from being born-again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

VARob said:
It's a spiritual event that occurs when a person decides to believe the gospel (Eph 1:13).
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Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not the same as being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
BTW, to "hear" is spiritual hearing, not human hearing; belief is from the Holy Spirit - see Gal 5:22 above.

[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
Magenta

Magenta

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VARob said:
The word for natural is psuchikos, and it means things pertaining to soul, or soulish. It is things pertaining to the world. People who think about things of the world don't think about spiritual things, even regard them as foolish. People can change what they think about. People can become humble, and choose to think about God.
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I thought about God quite a bit as a non-believer.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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VARob said:
If God had His way, everyone would be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11).[/QUOTE

God does have his way in all things.


All of the people, in the scriptures you have referenced, are spiritual Israel, and already have the promise of eternal inheritance.

Salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, and save=deliver, according to Strong's concordance.

1 Tim 2:4 - There is a deliverance from ignorance, when men of spiritual Israel mature enough to come unto a knowledge of the truth. This also harmonizes with Rom 10:1-3.

2 Pet 3:9 - Peter is speaking to those that have obtained like precious faith (2 Pet 1:1), even including himself by using the word "USWARD", Warning them that when they commit a sin, it separates them from fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent.

Perish=death=separation. John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have eternal life.

Ezk 33:11 - The wicked referred to in this verse are the disobedient house of Israel who have lost their fellowship with God, in verse 14 it says that if they repent, they shall live (regain their fellowship).

Your attempt to give the natural man the ability to respond to the things of the Spirit fails again, because you have been indoctrinated to believe in eternal deliverance by works.
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