Post Trib Rapture?

[Komentaja]

Post Tribers don't believe in a 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. The 1000 years in Revelation is the church age. The switch from Judaism to Christianity.

Regardless, the saints will be raptured on the last day and will return to a new heavens and new earth after the unsaved are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

You are talking about Amillennialism.. Which believes the 1000 year reign is a symbolic period of time happening now.

We are talking about Historic Premillennialism, and we do believe in a literal physical kingdom to fulfill the promises. Reason its called historic is because most of the early church fathers before nicea held to that view.

The late arrival to the party would be the dispensationalists who are also premillennial but believe in the pre-trib rapture, some KJVonly types also believe in different plans of salvation for different times(like Robert Breaker, Gene Kim etc. comes to mind) and believe that Israel and Church has separate programs and separate "train tracks" one being the earthly people and one the heavenly. The historic premillennial view is that the Church is the people of God that includes both Jew and Gentile and that Jews will join this Church in large numbers before the second coming.

 

[Komentaja]

Anybody,
When do the 2 witnesses from Revelation 11:
1. Come down from heaven to preach the Gospel?
2. Are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit?
Thank you.

Before the second coming.

 

[melchizedekau]

Revelation 20 states that to escape the second death one must be in the first resurrection.
The first resurrection will include those who did not take the mark of the beast nor worshiped him.
The first resurrection takes place after or at the time that the beast and false prophet are cast into the pit and Satin is bound for 1000 years.
SO, you explain how there can be a resurrection before the first?

 

[melchizedekau]

i have read most replies and where is the Gospel????? where is the witness of the verses used? what does Jesus say about it? Matt 13;30 the wheat stays till the end. Matt 24 Jesus explains the steps and signs, why does Jesus pray against a rapture? John 17:15. what does Paul say about the rapture to people who thought it already happened? what does Daniel say about it? doesnt the stone formed without hands fill the whole earth? and the glory of the Lord cover the earth like the sea? isn't there an angel in revelation that says the kingdoms of this world have now belong to Jesus? how can that be if we have all gone, doesn't the earth belong to the Lord? and its fullness? what does Zechariah say about it? sun darkened moon blood red. same as Jesus Matt 24. but Jesus never mentions a rapture nor does the old testament, one verse is used and the surrounding verses ignored; like at the "last trump" and "the dead in Christ shall rise first" 1 thess 4. Rev 20:4 but all the martyrs are in the dead rising first and have gone through the tribulation. and verses 6 and 7 is ignored. Paul confirms Johns revelation in 2 thess 2:1-4 the anti-christ comes first then the martyrs. not to mention as in the days of Noah. Matt 24:39 the evil ones were taken away, not Gods chosen. and yes there is a hiding of the woman from the dragon just as God held 7000 with Elijah. but the woman is the remnant of Israel. we are not a remnant but sons and children waiting for our revealing, listening to the earth groan. bless you.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Pre-Trib just makes more sense to me.

Could Post tribbers explain how it makes sense that the resurrection and rapture to occur at the Second Coming? We all ascend into the clouds to meet Jesus, only to immediately return to earth?

No other disputed verses need to be made here. I specifically just want to know if it makes sense to you that we should be raptured, then meet the Lord in the clouds, only to immediately come back to earth.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Pre-Trib just makes more sense to me.

Could Post tribbers explain how it makes sense that the resurrection and rapture to occur at the Second Coming? We all ascend into the clouds to meet Jesus, only to immediately return to earth?

No other disputed verses need to be made here. I specifically just want to know if it makes sense to you that we should be raptured, then meet the Lord in the clouds, only to immediately come back to earth.

We don't come back immediately. I hold the pre-wrath position. The rapture will occur just prior to Revelation 15 & 16. We will be safely with the Lord while God's wrath is poured out on those who took the mark and upon Babylon the great.

Revelation 7:9 mentions a "great multitude" from every nation, tribe, people and tongue; and calls them those who "came out of the great tribulation." They were around for the tribulation but were spared God's final wrath.

 

[Evmur]

Pre-Trib just makes more sense to me.

Could Post tribbers explain how it makes sense that the resurrection and rapture to occur at the Second Coming? We all ascend into the clouds to meet Jesus, only to immediately return to earth?

No other disputed verses need to be made here. I specifically just want to know if it makes sense to you that we should be raptured, then meet the Lord in the clouds, only to immediately come back to earth.

immediate [or after 7 years] is pretrib teaching

post tribbers teach after the 1, 000 years comes the final resurrection and judgement.

 

[RichMan]

immediate [or after 7 years] is pretrib teaching

post tribbers teach after the 1, 000 years comes the final resurrection and judgement.

Wrong!

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Pre-Trib just makes more sense to me.

Amen. On earth, Grace Ends, and Then Judgment Begins.

 

[GaryA]

Anybody,
When do the 2 witnesses from Revelation 11:
1. Come down from heaven to preach the Gospel?
2. Are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit?
Thank you.

During the 'Trumpet Events'.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

Pay close attention to the verses in the 'Trumpet' columns - and, particularly, Trumpet 5.

Before the second coming.

Correct.

 

[notonmywatch]

Pre-Trib just makes more sense to me.

Could Post tribbers explain how it makes sense that the resurrection and rapture to occur at the Second Coming? We all ascend into the clouds to meet Jesus, only to immediately return to earth?

No other disputed verses need to be made here. I specifically just want to know if it makes sense to you that we should be raptured, then meet the Lord in the clouds, only to immediately come back to earth.

You're clearly only interested in what Paul said in his first epistle to the Thessalonians, so let's just read it together and see what it actually says.

1 Thessalonians 4

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here, Paul is talking to the Thessalonian saints about Christians who are asleep or have died in Christ, and how they ought not to feel sorrow for them as with others who have no hope after death apart from Christ. He then goes on to explain how that Jesus will bring with him those who are asleep in him at the coming of the Lord.

Well, where is Jesus coming from?

He's coming from the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2) where he presently dwells, and the dead in Christ presently dwell there too because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). When Jesus and the dead in Christ come and descend from the third heaven, the Christians who yet are alive and remain on this earth will not prevent or precede those who are asleep, or they will not get their resurrected and glorified bodies ahead of those who Christ is coming and descending with from the third heaven. Not only this, but the Christians who are yet alive and who yet remain on the earth at that time will meet both the Lord and the dead in Christ in the clouds, which are a part of this earth's atmosphere, or in the air, which is part of this earth's atmosphere, or which are part of what we might rightly call the first heaven (Genesis 1:20). I mean, if there's a third heaven, then logic dictates that there must also be a first and second heaven, and the first heaven is where the clouds exist.

With these things in mind, how in the world do you see this as some sort of rapture to the third heaven?

In other words, where's the about face back to the third heaven?

In reality, it's nowhere to be found in the text because it's an outright lie from the father of lies. Anybody who reads this portion of scripture honestly can see that there's no mention of any return to the third heaven in it anywhere. That has to be forced upon the text because of somebody's prior beliefs that they were indoctrinated into believing. The only people being raptured or caught up here are the saints who will yet be alive while remaining on this earth at the Lord's coming and descending with his saints to this earth from the third heaven, and they are caught up to meet them in the air or in the clouds in their coming and descent in the first heaven. Again, no returning back to the third heaven or ascension back to the third heaven is mentioned anywhere in the text.

If you or anybody else honestly can't see this, then I'm very worried about you.

You said that no other disputed verses were needed here, so let's see what you do with this one. Hopefully, you'll embrace it for what it actually says.

 

[Blade]

You're clearly only interested in what Paul said in his first epistle to the Thessalonians, so let's just read it together and see what it actually says.

1 Thessalonians 4

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here, Paul is talking to the Thessalonian saints about Christians who are asleep or have died in Christ, and how they ought not to feel sorrow for them as with others who have no hope after death apart from Christ. He then goes on to explain how that Jesus will bring with him those who are asleep in him at the coming of the Lord.

Well, where is Jesus coming from?

He's coming from the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2) where he presently dwells, and the dead in Christ presently dwell there too because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). When Jesus and the dead in Christ come and descend from the third heaven, the Christians who yet are alive and remain on this earth will not prevent or precede those who are asleep, or they will not get their resurrected and glorified bodies ahead of those who Christ is coming and descending with from the third heaven. Not only this, but the Christians who are yet alive and who yet remain on the earth at that time will meet both the Lord and the dead in Christ in the clouds, which are a part of this earth's atmosphere, or in the air, which is part of this earth's atmosphere, or which are part of what we might rightly call the first heaven (Genesis 1:20). I mean, if there's a third heaven, then logic dictates that there must also be a first and second heaven, and the first heaven is where the clouds exist.

With these things in mind, how in the world do you see this as some sort of rapture to the third heaven?

In other words, where's the about face back to the third heaven?

In reality, it's nowhere to be found in the text because it's an outright lie from the father of lies. Anybody who reads this portion of scripture honestly can see that there's no mention of any return to the third heaven in it anywhere. That has to be forced upon the text because of somebody's prior beliefs that they were indoctrinated into believing. The only people being raptured or caught up here are the saints who will yet be alive while remaining on this earth at the Lord's coming and descending with his saints to this earth from the third heaven, and they are caught up to meet them in the air or in the clouds in their coming and descent in the first heaven. Again, no returning back to the third heaven or ascension back to the third heaven is mentioned anywhere in the text.

If you or anybody else honestly can't see this, then I'm very worried about you.

You said that no other disputed verses were needed here, so let's see what you do with this one. Hopefully, you'll embrace it for what it actually says.

For me the kind of post that should not be replied to yet here I am. Well knowing great man and woman of God that differ when it comes to "caught up" aka rapture never treat the other like this. As one man of God that didn't like being called a prophet yet was. He has gone home now. Studied the word for so many many years. When talking about Rapture said "I am post tribulation but if Christ comes pre tribulation I am ready now". I can drop name after name each one we all know they never make fun of talk down about the other ever in fact they always build the other up. So when unknown people like you and me pop up and might by mistake not really thinking say such things...its best to just no offense toss it out.

You said "In reality, it's nowhere to be found in the text because it's an outright lie from the father of lies.". Hmm ok "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also. And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.” We notice something God made sure to say something twice. Christ said "so where I am you will be also". Then made sure to say it again "where I am going you know". When God makes sure to say this twice for me I best listen. The 12 would have fully understood this from a old (for us now) Jewish wedding. Short fast version Father son pay a price for the bride. Son goes back to his fathers house to make them a place home. She stays behind waits for him not knowing when he will come for her. About a year alter mostly at night he come with friends just before he gets to her make a loud noise so she knows its him. Then takes her back to his fathers house for about a week or so we know why This proves nothing other then they fully knew what Christ was saying. And yeah where did this kind of marriage come from in the first place? Gods idea.

So I read Paul telling them when Christ comes in the air "we which remain" for me this means Paul was putting himself in that moment meaning for me it can happen at any point in time. For me Christ can not lie and He is making or its done a place in the Fathers house so where He is now in the Fathers house He will come back get me so where He is I will be. Not where I am He will be since that is Matt 24 which is not the same event as 1st Thess for me. You put both together and yeah sure God just left out facts in each one. Simple things the world Matt 24 see Him and its not nice moment where we all comfort one another with those words. 1st thess does not say the world see Him. Then knowing something right now has more power authority over the enemy something is holding the lawless one back.

How odd that when He/it is taken out of the way not taken away just out of the way then and only then the lawless one comes out in the open "The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], ". It is always odd for me that hmm why can Satan not come out in the open now and do lying wonders? Is not the Church given all power all authority over him? Then why does man have all the say here? Well why is it ok OT that God can rapture 2 but sorry God we won't allow you believe you can take the Church.

In all this here is truth. He is coming this is written. Now if one does not believe is not ready will He take you anyway will He go against your will? See fact there is no post tribulation verse nor pre tribulation verse. All I know is Christ is coming for us me to take me get me receive me unto Himself so where He is in heaven I will be. That will happen for He can not lie. I will be where He is. So when? I don't know and fact why would I believe any one when they have no more information about this then I do? I will be watching ready now. Always thinking about Him always watching my life how I live always ready. ITS AWESOME! Will He take those that do not believe go against their will? I don't know I think if He told me back then He was leaving and would come back for me and I then watched Him go up.. haha yeah I would KNOW He is coming back any moment for I was with Him for 3+ years and everything He promised something He always did it

 

[notonmywatch]

For me the kind of post that should not be replied to yet here I am. Well knowing great man and woman of God that differ when it comes to "caught up" aka rapture never treat the other like this. As one man of God that didn't like being called a prophet yet was. He has gone home now. Studied the word for so many many years. When talking about Rapture said "I am post tribulation but if Christ comes pre tribulation I am ready now". I can drop name after name each one we all know they never make fun of talk down about the other ever in fact they always build the other up. So when unknown people like you and me pop up and might by mistake not really thinking say such things...its best to just no offense toss it out.

You said "In reality, it's nowhere to be found in the text because it's an outright lie from the father of lies.". Hmm ok "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also. And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.” We notice something God made sure to say something twice. Christ said "so where I am you will be also". Then made sure to say it again "where I am going you know". When God makes sure to say this twice for me I best listen. The 12 would have fully understood this from a old (for us now) Jewish wedding. Short fast version Father son pay a price for the bride. Son goes back to his fathers house to make them a place home. She stays behind waits for him not knowing when he will come for her. About a year alter mostly at night he come with friends just before he gets to her make a loud noise so she knows its him. Then takes her back to his fathers house for about a week or so we know why This proves nothing other then they fully knew what Christ was saying. And yeah where did this kind of marriage come from in the first place? Gods idea.

So I read Paul telling them when Christ comes in the air "we which remain" for me this means Paul was putting himself in that moment meaning for me it can happen at any point in time. For me Christ can not lie and He is making or its done a place in the Fathers house so where He is now in the Fathers house He will come back get me so where He is I will be. Not where I am He will be since that is Matt 24 which is not the same event as 1st Thess for me. You put both together and yeah sure God just left out facts in each one. Simple things the world Matt 24 see Him and its not nice moment where we all comfort one another with those words. 1st thess does not say the world see Him. Then knowing something right now has more power authority over the enemy something is holding the lawless one back.

How odd that when He/it is taken out of the way not taken away just out of the way then and only then the lawless one comes out in the open "The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], ". It is always odd for me that hmm why can Satan not come out in the open now and do lying wonders? Is not the Church given all power all authority over him? Then why does man have all the say here? Well why is it ok OT that God can rapture 2 but sorry God we won't allow you believe you can take the Church.

In all this here is truth. He is coming this is written. Now if one does not believe is not ready will He take you anyway will He go against your will? See fact there is no post tribulation verse nor pre tribulation verse. All I know is Christ is coming for us me to take me get me receive me unto Himself so where He is in heaven I will be. That will happen for He can not lie. I will be where He is. So when? I don't know and fact why would I believe any one when they have no more information about this then I do? I will be watching ready now. Always thinking about Him always watching my life how I live always ready. ITS AWESOME! Will He take those that do not believe go against their will? I don't know I think if He told me back then He was leaving and would come back for me and I then watched Him go up.. haha yeah I would KNOW He is coming back any moment for I was with Him for 3+ years and everything He promised something He always did it

There's a ton of error in what you just wrote.

The OP is the one who wanted to stick to that one portion of scripture, and that is what I did. I could easily refute the things that you put forth here, but that is not the purpose of this thread, so I won't.

Have a great night.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Pre-Trib just makes more sense to me.

Could Post tribbers explain how it makes sense that the resurrection and rapture to occur at the Second Coming? We all ascend into the clouds to meet Jesus, only to immediately return to earth?

No other disputed verses need to be made here. I specifically just want to know if it makes sense to you that we should be raptured, then meet the Lord in the clouds, only to immediately come back to earth.

“Could Post tribbers explain how it makes sense that the resurrection and rapture to occur at the Second Coming?”

listen to Paul the apostle

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have the trumpet , chrost appeering , the dead rising up and those still alive being instantly changed and glorified and caught up in the air with Jesus and all The other believers

The reason they are caught up
Into the air is because this is happening immediately after that happens

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When Jesus went to heaven we were told one day he would return the same way visible to all people of all time the living and dead will see him because even the dead are raised when he returns that day we’re waiting for

so our faith should sound like this as we live as if we are waiting for that day

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This earth is the lake of fire where ungodly are judged when Jesus returns from heaven as he said and all his apostles said

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after the judgement all things are restored

Peter was teaching the same thing upon his return as Paul there

“Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This world is going to pass away with the fires of judgement even the sea will be burned up , but Jesus promises a new and better world with a new and living water flowing from his throne and where God dwells among men face to face a father and his children forever

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:

for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus could return tomorrow brother the idea is we’re supposed to be ready if it’s tomorrow or a hundred years

 

[melchizedekau]

yes there is no scripture for a pre trib. 2 thess ch 2 confirs with Rev 20;4,5,6. 1 Corr 15:52 says at the LAST trump. which confirms matt 24 and Rev 20. there are the witnesses John and Paul confirming what Jesus said in Matthew. then there is matthew himself so that makes 3 witnesses.

 

[Cameron143]

yes there is no scripture for a pre trib. 2 thess ch 2 confirs with Rev 20;4,5,6. 1 Corr 15:52 says at the LAST trump. which confirms matt 24 and Rev 20. there are the witnesses John and Paul confirming what Jesus said in Matthew. then there is matthew himself so that makes 3 witnesses.

And Luke?

 

[melchizedekau]

well brother the church has lied and lied to many people you will have to do your own search for the truth just like the Bereans did in Acts

 

[melchizedekau]

And Luke?

luke and maybe mark also but i got my answer just out of john and matt. confirming what paul had said in his letters.

 

[Cameron143]

well brother the church has lied and lied to many people you will have to do your own search for the truth just like the Bereans did in Acts

I only ask because Luke 23 is parallel to Matthew 24 and you included Matthew.

 

[Cameron143]

luke and maybe mark also but i got my answer just out of john and matt. confirming what paul had said in his letters.

Gotcha