Post Trib Rapture?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here, Paul is talking to the Thessalonian saints about Christians who are asleep or have died in Christ, and how they ought not to feel sorrow for them as with others who have no hope after death apart from Christ. He then goes on to explain how that Jesus will bring with him those who are asleep in him at the coming of the Lord.

Actually, the text is stating that GOD will bring "with Him [/Jesus]"... but it isn't referring to Him bringing them from Heaven (where they are presently "at home with [G1736 G4314] the Lord" in their spirits/souls) to get their glorified [/resurrected] bodies.

We know this because 1Th4:14 says, "shall God bring [G71, lead] WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him/Jesus"... and that "UNIONed-with" Him thing requires their already-resurrected BODIES [glorified bodies]"... which is what the "SO [/IN THIS MANNER] SHALL we ever be with [UNIONed-with] the Lord" is talking about (that is, by means of "our Rapture / caught up / SNATCH" will we be with Him)

Well, where is Jesus coming from?

I think the more pertinent question is, where will He [/God] be "LEADING [G71]" us TO?? (from that point)...

... I believe the preceding context tells us: "BEFORE [in the face of G1715] the God and Father of us" ("in the presence / parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ" with all His saints)

He's coming from the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2) where he presently dwells, and the dead in Christ presently dwell there too because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

"absent from the body, at home with the Lord"... right. 2Cor5:8 (and referred to earlier in this context as "unclothed"... that is, APART from a body... for a time... upon death of the believer... until they are bodily resurrected of course, at the time of "our Rapture")

When Jesus and the dead in Christ come and descend from the third heaven,

except, this is NOT what is being spoken of, where the text states, "shall God bring WITH [UNIONed-WITH] Him" (1Th4:14) because the "UNIONed-WITH" Him thing doesn't happen UNTIL they have their resurrected bodies and we are "caught up TOGETHER WITH" them ("and SO SHALL we ever BE UNIONEDed-WITH the Lord"--BY MEANS OF "our Rapture / SNATCH" UP... TOGETHER at the same time)

the Christians who yet are alive and remain on this earth will not prevent or precede those who are asleep, or they will not get their resurrected and glorified bodies ahead of those who Christ is coming and descending with from the third heaven.

Right.

And interesting that this same word "prevent / precede [G5348]" (in 1Th4:15) is also used in the Daniel 7:13 [LXX] passage I had pointed out in a different thread, showing how the "Son of man" by means of "the clouds of the heavens" will be "brought [Him / Jesus] near before Him [/God]"... that is, UP THERE.

Not only this, but the Christians who are yet alive and who yet remain on the earth at that time will meet both the Lord and the dead in Christ in the clouds, which are a part of this earth's atmosphere, or in the air, which is part of this earth's atmosphere, or which are part of what we might rightly call the first heaven (Genesis 1:20). I mean, if there's a third heaven, then logic dictates that there must also be a first and second heaven, and the first heaven is where the clouds exist.

So?

The question is, where do we go once we are "caught up" TO the MEETING OF THE LORD "in the air"?

You say (as many do) "right back down"...

... whereas, I (taking my clues from the text, its precise wording, and previous/wider context) say "UP" to the third Heaven, "BEFORE [in the face of G1715]" the God and Father of us" per 1Th3:13 (and as evidenced by the "24 elders" [wearing "stephanous / crowns"(!!)] saying" hast redeemed US TO GOD by Thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..." before Jesus will be opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "7-yr period" commonly called the Tribulation Period).

With these things in mind, how in the world do you see this as some sort of rapture to the third heaven?

Easy.

One just must pay careful attention to the actual words used, and to the broader context (not relying merely on the few verses in chpt 4 to try to come to its meaning), and recognizing that the "shall God BRING [/LEAD] WITH [UNIONed-WITH, G4862] Him" cannot occur WITHOUT their resurrected/glorified BODIES (so cannot be referring to Him bringing them [body-less, in their spirits/souls] from Heaven when He DESCENDS for the meeting "in the air". NO.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Dan 7:13 LXX - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/dan/7/13/t_concl_857013

"...and they brought him near before him."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Anybody,
When do the 2 witnesses from Revelation 11:
1. Come down from heaven to preach the Gospel?
2. Are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit?
Thank you.

Personally, I do not believe they "COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN" to spend their "1260 days" of ministry. I tend to believe these will be two entirely new / different people, who will at that time exist on the earth.

I believe their "1260 days" of their prophecy / testimony will STRADDLE the two halves...

... as the MID-POINT is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth"...

... and yet these "2W" are killed (and are resurrected & ascend up into Heaven--the END of their ministry) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology... That is, AFTER the mid-point, by some time.

So I see their "1260 days" as running parallel with 6 of the "7 Trumpets [judgments]" which themselves commence well after the START of the 7-yr period (which starts at SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:3]" of many more "birth PANGS [plural]" that follow on from that INITIAL one)... so, say, perhaps something like nearly 2 years INTO the 7-yr Trib (after the SEALS unfold), roughly... IOW, their "1260 days" ministry is not exclusively in either half, as many suggest.



Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )

Good question!

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Personally, I do not believe they "COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN" to spend their "1260 days" of ministry. I tend to believe these will be two entirely new / different people, who will at that time exist on the earth.

I believe their "1260 days" of their prophecy / testimony will STRADDLE the two halves...

... as the MID-POINT is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth"...

... and yet these "2W" are killed (and are resurrected & ascend up into Heaven--the END of their ministry) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology... That is, AFTER the mid-point, by some time.

So I see their "1260 days" as running parallel with 6 of the "7 Trumpets [judgments]" which themselves commence well after the START of the 7-yr period (which starts at SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:3]" of many more "birth PANGS [plural]" that follow on from that INITIAL one)... so, say, perhaps something like nearly 2 years INTO the 7-yr Trib (after the SEALS unfold), roughly... IOW, their "1260 days" ministry is not exclusively in either half, as many suggest.



Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )

Good question!

Revelation 11:4
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Mark 6:7
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;


Psalm 52:8
But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[Nehemiah6]

When do the 2 witnesses from Revelation 11: 1. Come down from heaven to preach the Gospel? 2. Are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit?

These two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) come down from Heaven as soon as the Antichrist begins to reign, and their period of ministry coincides with his reign -- 1260 days = 42 months = 3 1/2 years = time, times, and half a time.

The "beast from the bottomless pit" is the Antichrist, who has them executed. They are resurrected in 3 1/2 days, and then raptured back to Heaven. They convert many Jews through the preaching of the Gospel, and while they are situated in Jerusalem, their outreach is worldwide.

The reason they are thought to be Moses and Elijah is because of the correspondence of their early miracles and their later miracles. And there is absolutely no question that Elijah will come, since that prophecy is embedded in Malachi. And because it was Moses and Elijah who spoke with Christ at His transfiguration, it is reasonable to believe that they have been paired for this purpose. Moses represents "the Law" (Torah) and Elijah represents "the Prophets" (Neviim).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Literal Standard Version
because it is the time of the judgment to have begun from the house of God, and if first from us, what [is] the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?

Berean Literal Bible
For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God?

Young's Literal Translation
because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those disobedient to the good news of God?

Smith's Literal Translation
For the time for judgment to have begun from the house of God: and if first from us, what the end of them not believing the good tidings of God?




[seems the "FOR / BECAUSE" refers back to something in a previous verse... namely v.13b (yet "future" to us presently)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The reason they are thought to be Moses and Elijah is because of the correspondence of their early miracles and their later miracles. And there is absolutely no question that Elijah will come, since that prophecy is embedded in Malachi.

However, even Jesus had said this (about a DIFFERENT person, namely John the Baptist):

"And if you are willing to receive it, he [JtB] is Elijah, the one being about to [/being SURE to] come." Matt11:14

However, they were NOT "willing"...




I'm just pointing this verse out, to show that perhaps the future "2W" (even tho coming in equivalent role as "Elijah") may not be him LITERALLY (but acting in his capacity, so to speak... just as "John the Baptist" was said to be "Elijah" IF they would receive it--But JtB hadn't existed on the earth prior to that point in time when Jesus spoke the Matt11:14 words... I mean, like way in the past, as though JtB were LITERALLY "Elijah").

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Pre-Trib just makes more sense to me.

Could Post tribbers explain how it makes sense that the resurrection and rapture to occur at the Second Coming? We all ascend into the clouds to meet Jesus, only to immediately return to earth?

No other disputed verses need to be made here. I specifically just want to know if it makes sense to you that we should be raptured, then meet the Lord in the clouds, only to immediately come back to earth.

Think of triumphal entry meet Him as He comes in the cloud and be His entourage.
Im not post tri but this seems to be the idea. Im not pre trib nor am i mid trib. I just admit to not knowing everything.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

in the Daniel 7:13 [LXX] passage I had pointed out in a different thread, showing how the "Son of man" by means of "the clouds of the heavens" will be "brought [Him / Jesus] near before Him [/God]"... that is, UP THERE.

Dan 7:13 LXX - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/dan/7/13/t_concl_857013

"...and they brought him near before him."

I suggest one do a study of the word "PRESENT [G3936; verb]" as used in the following verses:

-- 2 Cor 4:14 - "knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with [G4862] Jesus, and will present [G3936] us with you.

-- 2 Cor 11:2 - [re: the MARRIAGE]

-- Rom 14:10 - [re: the JSoC / BEMA]

--Eph 5:27 - [re: the MARRIAGE]

-- Col 1:22,28 -





IOW, Paul weaves this thought THROUGHOUT his epistles, and not merely in ONE passage (1Th4).







["present [verb, G3936--in LXX Grk], presented" is also used in a verse preceding Dan7:13, that is, in 7:10]

 

[Nehemiah6]

"And if you are willing to receive it, he [JtB] is Elijah, the one being about to [/being SURE to] come." Matt11:14

It is true that Christ presented John as Elijah, but that would have been spiritually and metaphorically. John himself denied that he was literally Elijah: And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias [Elijah]? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. (John 1:21) John had the spirit and power of Elijah, just like Elisha, and all Israel came to hear him and see him, and almost all were baptized by him.

Note: The King James translators were not translating the Greek form of the Hebrew names. Thus Elijah was Elias, and Joshua was Jesus. This was transliteration.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Mark 6:7
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Are you saying that Jesus, when He called unto Him THE TWELVE, that He sent them forth "by two [churches] and two [churches]" ??


[head-scratcher, lol]

Revelation 11:4
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

These ("2W") are the 2 olive trees...

... the 2 candlesticks...

TOTALLING "2" [not "4"] ("2W"... "these TWO prophets" Rev11:10).







[as a side note, I've mentioned in the past: saying "[what the Spirit saith unto] the churchES" (Rev2-3) is not identical to saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]




Study also (in Scripture) the phrase "the God of the earth" (Rev11:4)...; standing "before [G1799]" (in sight of) "the God OF THE EARTH" (why that?)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Study also (in Scripture) the phrase "the God of the earth" (Rev11:4)...; standing "before [G1799]" (in sight of) "the God OF THE EARTH" (why that?)

Meant to say: study the phrase "the God of the earth / the Lord of the earth (Rev11:4) in Scripture

 

[cv5]

Think of triumphal entry meet Him as He comes in the cloud and be His entourage.
Im not post tri but this seems to be the idea. Im not pre trib nor am i mid trib. I just admit to not knowing everything.

Give it time. Read what TDW has to say with all diligence. You will come around to pre-trib. Because it is Biblically accurate. Obviously so. When you reach the point where "critical mass" in terms of understanding the whole Bible both OT and NT, everything becomes clear and into focus.

Pre-trib all the way bro.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

These two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) come down from Heaven as soon as the Antichrist begins to reign, and their period of ministry coincides with his reign -- 1260 days = 42 months = 3 1/2 years = time, times, and half a time.

Wrong guess of the 2 witnesses. This prophesy is told many different ways in the Bible. And they all come to the conclusion that the saints in every church lose their salvation power. Every external representation of the Christian church is under the power of Satan. The world is currently in the Great Tribulation.

 

[cv5]

The world is currently in the Great Tribulation.

Not so you would notice. But we are getting there with a number of prophetic events to occur first. Maybe a decade or two at most before the 70th week begins.

 

[GaryA]

Wrong guess of the 2 witnesses. This prophesy is told many different ways in the Bible. And they all come to the conclusion that the saints in every church lose their salvation power. Every external representation of the Christian church is under the power of Satan. The world is currently in the Great Tribulation.

Please give more detail about what you are saying here...

Please define 'salvation power' in the context of your statement.

'Every external representation of the Christian church' - external to what?

'in the Great Tribulation' - since ~ 70 A.D. or some other historical point in time?

 

[GaryA]

Not so you would notice. But we are getting there with a number of prophetic events to occur first. Maybe a decade or two at most before the 70th week begins.

'a number of prophetic events to occur first' - examples? (other than a pre-trib rapture; if the rapture is one of them, what are the rest of them?)

Please be specific and give the prophetic Bible verses/passages.

The 70th week [of Daniel] ended in 34 A.D. - Daniel 9:24-27 is fulfilled.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ^ Many people do incorrectly CONFLATE "for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people" (Lk21:23) which takes place "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs (per Lk21:12) in the 70ad events, [conflated] WITH THAT of "great tribulation" which takes place AFTER the beginning of birth pangs (and AFTER the AOD), per Matt24:15,21.




Completely DISTINCT things at wholly distinct time-slots!!

 

[GaryA]

^ ^ Many people do incorrectly CONFLATE "for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people" (Lk21:23) which takes place "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs (per Lk21:12) in the 70ad events, [conflated] WITH THAT of "great tribulation" which takes place AFTER the beginning of birth pangs (and AFTER the AOD), per Matt24:15,21.




Completely DISTINCT things at wholly distinct time-slots!!

NOPE.

With regard to what you are saying here - Matthew, Mark, and Luke are talking about the same events - not different things at different times.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The 70th week [of Daniel] ended in 34 A.D. - Daniel 9:24-27 is fulfilled.

Let the readers consider what I'd put in my Post #461 and Post #462 (different thread) about the SEQUENTIAL nature of the Dan9:24-27 prophecy (which pertains to "thy [Daniel's] people" and "thy [Daniel's] holy city" and what points those CONNECT to, elsewhere in Scripture):

Post #461 - https://christianchat.com/threads/c...pseudo-rapture-doctrine-4.208914/post-5000413

Post #462 - https://christianchat.com/threads/c...pseudo-rapture-doctrine-4.208914/post-5000422


and in the latter Post of which, I'd put:

"--Dan9:24 to that of Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [/Matt24:29-31] and to that of Rom11:26,27[15] (v.25 "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL"... where there are a number of "TILL / UNTIL" passages speaking to this same matter... Relatedly, see also Rom9:26 [as distinct from v.25 re: the Gentiles] correlating with Hos1:10-11... speaking of Israel / Israel's "future" [like Dan12:1-3 speaks to, as well as Ezek37:12-14,20-23, Hos5:14-6:3, Isa26:14-21,19, and several other related passages...])"


...one would have to show how these passages DO NOT "connect". (They do.)









And in what I'd put in Post #461 (quote in part):

[re: Dan9] The first item in v.27a speaks of confirming a covenant "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (that's not what Jesus did)