To answer your questions, who says this, that would be those who state we have free will to choose the gospel,and can freely choose Christ.Okay.
Did someone say it was?
Who is insisting this?
Can you point me to to these posts?
Yeah, that word gets thrown around a lot. Too much.
I agree. In fact, TD is accepted across the majority of Christendom. People kick and scream at their own lack of understanding, it seems. Part of the Arminian acronym has total depravity also, as the "T" in FACTS. Molinism modifies humanity's depravity to being radical.
Jesus' Words in John 6:65
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Yeah, that free will thing is a stickler. The fact is, even though we make choices, our will is not free, nor is it a Biblical concept.
What I say is that our will is constrained by too many factors to truly be called free.
I am aware of having had the choice put before me. Being in the natural man at the time, a state I am intimately aware of having lived there for fifty years, I was unable to say yes to God. Perhaps even worse, I did not want to say yes to that God. But it did alter my course, because I eventually started going to church, and then was involved in the Alpha Course, where I finally became aware that I had given up my fight against God. I sometimes ask people questions about what they believe because I know my beliefs have been influenced by my experiences, and I am curious to know their own, if they have been influenced that way also. Not all are in the same ways. There are many different reasons why people believe in God. I am aware of God drawing me, of His calling on my life. I know He did a work in me before I could surrender my life to Him. They were profound experiences for me.
So either God is a liar, or you are misunderstanding the context of this Scripture. I'm prone to go with the latter explanation. What is the context here, in this chapter and who is being spoken to? Let's start there.
There is no need. The salvation plan is only for a few. In fact there was no need of Christ to shed a drop of blood, if the elect are already saved and on their way to heaven. Christ died in vein and for no one.
The elect don't need it. And those that do can't receive it.
Why? They had no choice. Their fate was sealed before they were born, what is God just rubbing it in now?!
Christ had to die to make payment for those He came to save and to make good God's promise of salvation to Abraham of
his (Abraham's) spiritual seed.
Maybe according to you, but according to God, He desires them to gain an understanding of the gift they are given,
the mercies of God, and an understanding of the basis of their salvation.
The manifestation of their violation. It is their contention and desire that they are able find God and come to faith of themselves by their
works, so God gives the opportunity to prove it if they can.
Paul told us "salvation" is the gift of God.
That "faith" is a gift in Ephesians is a not linguistically supportable.
No, I don't like taking orders, if you want to discuss it then say on as to what you think it means.
Mostly we don't see eye to eye on how to minister the truth. You seem to be able to disaffect even those who largely agree with you.
Try a little kindness and gentleness. People are beat up enough already.
This is an awesome post.
Calvinism is basically a denial of reality superimposed on scripture so no matter which scripture verses you cite it will be of no avail.
If (as you say), salvation is the gift of 2:8, then grace and faith are what brought it into being and thereby part
of the gift too.
Says who ? God created everything in view of Salvation through Christ. This world was created for Him as the Surety redeemer Col 1:14-16
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The wicked of Prov 16 served His Purpose, the Day of wrath
But he didn't "come to save" they were already safe in the fold. And God had already made and unconditional covenant with Abraham.
But again, they are already safe. They always were, they always will be. Why kill your only Son for people who are already on their happy way to heaven? The basis of their salvation is God picking and choosing, not on Christ's sacrifice, so there is no need for all the drama. They already won the lottery in life.
They didn't violate anything, they were chosen for destruction. Not their choice.
We're not saved by works, correct?
Not an order, an invitation to discuss. I don't wish to argue. We can close the door on it if you wish. I'm asking what is the context of the chapter, what is being spoken about. If you want to discuss further, let me know.