Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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No, people are not born again until after they hear and believe the gospel.
They could have believed and become saved.
Yes. It's doing what Jesus told us is the only way we can come to him. No one comes to Jesus unless the father calls them. And no one can understand God's calling, the things of God, unless or until God's Holy Spirit intervenes and changed their natural mind that cannot otherwise understand the calling, the things, of God.
Yeah, I was asking because it was said if we do anything at all it is not grace.
I think the comment you are referring to was denying works salvation.
Feeling a kinship with the gospel message isn't work, or doing something to obtain salvation.
I really fail to see why people have an issue with this.
Paul told us our faith and salvation, by grace of God, is therefore not our doing,our choice, and as such we cannot boast.
Yet, here we are insisting salvation is of ourselves,by our choice.
Seems like those who insist on that are openly renouncing 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:8.
While those who do not deny those two passages are accused of being Calvinists.
With regard to Calvinism, what I think causes controversy for Christians in considering its doctrine is the phrasing in the TULIP acronym.
''Total depravity'', for instance. You are totally depraved when not a Christian!
That's bad.
However, I think if we release the impact of the wording on TULIP we may realize something. That is, aside from other denominations who also employ acronyms to synopsize their doctrines, that rewording TULIP, or doing away with those incendiary 5 letters altogether, the Calvinist doctrine is fully supported by scripture.
T=the Bible says the things of God are foolishness to those of a natural mind, meaning all humans. Only intercession by Holy Spirit remedies that.
Paul told us, faith and salvation are gifts of God.
Jesus told us no one comes to him unless God calls them.
Which is consistent with Ephesians 2 and 1 Corinthians 2.
Your comment is probably referring to me. In regard to one's coming to Jesus, if someone does so by being drawn of the Father, I believe that it is only because they have already been saved and born again by God. Coming to Jesus is an after effect of that. My point was that noting can be done to obtain grace, which grace, results in salvation. It was not intended to address what transpires after that - grace and salvation manifest themselves in many ways causing many different actions in those saved - but again - that is from salvation, not to salvation. Hope that clarifies.
[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13
The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Matthew 7:7
Seek the Lord while he may be found;call on him while he is near.
Isaiah 55:6
This is what the Lord says to Israel: “Seek me and live.”
Amos 5:4
Seek good, not evil, that you may live.Then the Lord God Almighty will be with you,just as you say he is.
Amos 5:14
John 15 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. Rev. 14
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
“Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy- laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. “For My yoke is easy, and My load is light” (Matt 11:28-30)
Seek me, follow me, obey me. Why would Scripture say this if man has no free will?
Without free-will, man cannot love God. And we know that God says for us to love Him with all our heart (Matt 22:37). For a man to love God, he must have the freedom to choose or reject Him. Love involves an acceptance of the person being loved, in this case God.
There are still forced and arranged marriages today. In fact the Bible often talks about the saints as a bride. If I am forced to marry the groom, do I love them? No, any bride wants to choose her groom. Forced love is not true love.
Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .
That would be a lie, if God created a few elect and others to perish.
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him” Acts 10
“For there is no respecter of persons with God” (Rom 2:11 KJV)
Scripture does not teach God created some to be saved and some to perish.
I just noticed that in my prior reply to you I said "noting" but meant "nothing" - as in grace is only given solely as a gift of God
with nothing that anyone can do to acquire it.
The heart must first be changed by God for that to happen. That change only occurs through being born again.
[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
If you'll notice, that comment was being made in the context of Paul speaking to the brethren, not everyone
[Mat 7:11 KJV] 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Look, I'm not going to go through each and every verse you've posted, but you should be able to get the idea from the above.
I'll look at it again tomorrow and should I feel so inclined, I'll address them then.
I had to reply to your last point:
What do you think these verses mean?
[Rom 9:20-22 KJV]
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Why did Jesus preach? Why did he call us to be fishers of men? What's the point if we are divided as those that are chosen to go to heaven, and those that go to hell? Why did Paul and Silas find themselves in prison? None of this is necessary if God had already chosen the elect and those who would be lost. It makes no sense.
Yes, it does.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Why did Jesus tell us no one can come to him unless God calls,leads,them?
Why did Paul tell us our natural mind, meaning the unredeemed, cannot understand the things of God? And the only thing that remedies that is intervention by God, the Holy Spirit?
Romans 9:18So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
1. To complete God the Father's plan of salvation and Christ's offering.
2. For the edification of the elect and the saints to include the teaching of Christ and God's plan of salvation.
3. To establish evidence of violations for future judgment against those who will never be under the auspices of Christ.
There are more, but these immediately come to mind
Okay.
Did someone say it was?
Who is insisting this?
Can you point me to to these posts?
Yeah, that word gets thrown around a lot. Too much.
I agree. In fact, TD is accepted across the majority of Christendom. People kick and scream at their own lack of understanding, it seems. Part of the Arminian acronym has total depravity also, as the "T" in FACTS. Molinism modifies humanity's depravity to being radical.
Jesus' Words in John 6:65
