Just butting in for clarification... sorry.
You do understand that was Peter speaking, not Jesus, right?
Do you believe everything the Bible says?
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Just butting in for clarification... sorry.
You do understand that was Peter speaking, not Jesus, right?
If you believe that when He speaks to the 12 He is not always talking about all of the 12, why do you build a doctrine based on believing He is always talking about all of the 12?
If He knows who He has chosen then He knows that Judas will not believe, that Judas does not inherit eternal life, that Judas will not sit on a throne in the resurrection judging Israel.
So:
Matthew 19:28-29
"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life."
Do you believe that what Jesus says here is true?
He is speaking of future events that will 'verily verily' come to pass. That is by definition, prophecy.
You agree that neither the prophecy of sitting on 12 thrones in the resurrection nor the prophecy of inheriting eternal life are true of Judas, because you agree Judas is lost.
Therefore there are only two options for interpreting this prophecy:
- Jesus is speaking of Judas here, therefore Jesus is falsely prophesying, and since He knows whom He has chosen, He is not falsely prophesying out of ignorance but lying on purpose, making Him evil.
- Jesus is not speaking about Judas here.
And you still believe option 1?
I believe the whole passage:
John 6:68-71
But Simon Peter answered Him,
"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus answered them,
"Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
Jesus does not agree with Simon Peter's statement and immediately corrected him.
Do you believe that Jesus called Judas an unbeliever? Please point that to verse. Do you believe devil = unbeliever?
Do you believe this verse?
James 2
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
Your pretense is flawed since you simply lack the piece that calls Judas an unbeliever. The evidence is Judas was a believer. Do you believe Peter’s eyewitness testimony as a bonafide apostle of Christ or do you lean on Mr. Posthuman’s understanding?
Do you believe that Judas was given authority to heal, cast out demons, and that is something believers can do?
Yea I believe that.
Do you believe that Jesus didn’t refute Peter? Jesus just said one of them is a devil. Do you believe devils can be believers too?
Compare what you are saying with this:
John 7:2-5
Now the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. His brothers therefore said to Him,
"Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing. For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world."
For even His brothers did not believe in Him.
His brothers did not believe in Him.
Therefore they wanted Him to reveal Himself in power.
It is because they did not believe His identity that they sought to make the Kingdom be ushered in.
When Judas handed over Jesus, it's not just Judas acting. Satan is in him. So these are Satan's plans - to force a confrontation in the garden.
Why would Satan want this? Did Satan know that Jesus is God Himself incarnate or did Satan still think He is only an anointed human prophet with power to work earthly miracles?
What did Satan expect to happen to all the soldiers he brought to the garden? Does Satan intend them to live or to die?
Is Satan trying to force an earthly kingdom to be brought about because he wants people to be saved or because he wants as many people to be murdered as possible without salvation?
You're not interested in whether anyone believes everything in the Bible; you're interested in proselytizing others to believe what you believe.
Where does it say Judas was ever saved to begin with?
The New Covenant didn't actually go into effect until the Crucifixion. Between Jesus Death and Resurrection Judas kills himself.
Judas was NEVER SAVED to lose his Salvation.
You are arguing a point that doesn't even exist.
Your questions can’t be answered because they would require me to to adhere to the false pretense that Judas was not a believer. That’s an untenable position. So take a few steps back first and see if we can come to a mutual understanding. Where is Judas directly called an unbeliever?
I do, though there are things that I don't understand, so I admit that to Him; I trust that I don't need to, just to trust Him and His all knowing. So, yes I believe everything but not always sure what is suppose to be symbolic or not. Also, I find things that seem to oppose other parts, guess that's what keeps us coming together to reason as nothing should be left to one man's interpretation. The things that seem to contradict, I take to Him to try and understand because I know it is not His failing but mine in my own limitations. So again, YES, most definitely!!
Hmm, I see it as a semantical thing... that is to say that the idea of "believing" has multiple definitions, okay? Remember we touched briefly on this before, lol?
Yes, devils, demons, and I guess Judas too, believed something... that Jesus was the Son of God. But the belief that brings Salvation is different and goes further/deeper.
People need to believe that the Son of God went to the cross and died for us, that He bore the Wrath of God for us, and ultimately paid the price and took the penalty of our sin... and we believe that His work, in totality, justifies us before God.
Responses like this always puzzle me. Since that’s not what I am doing and God knows the truth, why would you say that?
And for the record, Christian forums are rocky ground man. Why would I labor among thorns and rocks to reap so little? That’s not why i discuss on this forum.
hmmm good to know your perspective.
Well, James 2 says devils believe in God too. I don’t see it as semantics or requiring any additional interpretation.
If what James said of devils is true and Jesus called Judas a devil, and Peter affirmed “we” (the 12 apostles) believe in Jesus, then Judas was a believer. I’m not willing to accept James or Jesus was wrong.
James 2
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
to be clear, i am not calling Jesus a liar.
this is the criteria for being a liar and it is not subjective at all:
knowingly making false statements is lying.
if Jesus tells Judas that Judas will reign with Him in the resurrection and Jesus knows this is not true,
then Jesus is knowingly making false statements.
that is not subjective. that is objective fact.
i am not calling Jesus a liar.
the interpretation that Jesus is knowingly making false prophecies about Judas is calling Jesus a liar.
that is objective, not subjective.
Runningman, you are debating a viewpoint that doesn't even exist.
It's like talking to a wall and believing the wall will answer you.
You've spent weeks on a subject that does not exist.
Why?
That's hogwash; a lie made up by a KJV-only proponent, no doubt.
The truth is that the Holy Spirit can work with no words at all. He speaks to Moslems through dreams. He spoke to Naaman without the word. He is not as limited as you claim.
The reality is that God's word is truth, and as the translators of the KJV pointed out, even the meanest (poorest) translation of the word of God is still the word of God.
Either we believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth (even despite a poor translation) or we don't.
Yeah, okay... I think I see how you're threading things together, thanks.
But surely, you're not suggesting that demons believe on Jesus for the Salvation of their souls, right?
you did not answer any of these questions.
the way a dialogue works is that we take turns. i am not chasing you down rabbit holes while you leave what i've said on the table untouched.
when you answer my previous post, i will reply to your reply.
none of these questions "require you adhere to a false pretense" they are simply questions.
i, post, will repost the post i previously posted which you sidestepped, below -- the questions are marked with green text for your convenience:
If you believe that when He speaks to the 12 He is not always talking about all of the 12, why do you build a doctrine based on believing He is always talking about all of the 12?
If He knows who He has chosen then He knows that Judas will not believe, that Judas does not inherit eternal life, that Judas will not sit on a throne in the resurrection judging Israel.
So:
Matthew 19:28-29
"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life."
Do you believe that what Jesus says here is true?
He is speaking of future events that will 'verily verily' come to pass. That is by definition, prophecy.
You agree that neither the prophecy of sitting on 12 thrones in the resurrection nor the prophecy of inheriting eternal life are true of Judas, because you agree Judas is lost.
Therefore there are only two options for interpreting this prophecy:
- Jesus is speaking of Judas here, therefore Jesus is falsely prophesying, and since He knows whom He has chosen, He is not falsely prophesying out of ignorance but lying on purpose, making Him evil.
- Jesus is not speaking about Judas here.
And you still believe option 1?