Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Runningman

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Cameron143 said:
I'm not sure you understand biblical faith. Biblical faith is the belief that what God says will come to pass.
The hope of biblical faith has substance. That substance is evidence not seen. It is believing that God cannot lie and what He has said He will do. The surety of faith is found in God, not our hope. Our hope finds its substance in God.
We can hope it won't rain tomorrow. It may or may not rain. But if God in some way communicates to you that it will not, then it will not. And your hope is confirmed with certainty.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

If the weatherman says it is going to rain. There are heavy laden clouds overhead. The storm system coming towards you has been drenching everything in its path, and God says it will not rain where you are, is it going to rain where you are?
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As a trained weather forecaster, I might actually disagree with certain things they say, so maybe not the best example to use. :LOL:

So what did God say? Do X things and then He will do X things, right? So our faith is actually in the teachings of Jesus. That’s a pretty safe thing to say right? Well, what did Jesus teach? Didn’t he show us the way? His way is the way. We follow this way believing it’s the way God has assigned to us in order to have eternal life. We have faith God will give us according to His message delivered to us by Jesus and our faith is evidence of that.

Jesus didn’t just say “have faith” and that’s all. The gospels are full of things he said to do and he also warned that if you don’t do them you can perish or not enter the kingdom of God. Our faith is dead without works. This is all through the NT.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
The definition of faith says it's the substance of things hoped for. I give someone $20, they say they will pay me back, I have faith what they say is true, but actually they can chose to not repay me, but I hope they will. That's exactly what faith is.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, but he was not circumcised yet. Later, circumcision became a requirement and obedience to this law was counted as righteousness.

So in the New Testament, there are also things we must do. We don't necessarily have to understand why, but just trust that these things are true. That's faith. Do you know what you have to do?
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the great defenition is an assurance of.
 
cv5

cv5

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Runningman said:
No, I got it all correct. Your faith is required for God's grace. That's a condition.
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Wrong.

God's grace is that which BESTOWS GIFT OF FAITH.
Faith is first and foremost A GIFT. Just like every good thing that comes from God.

This chatter about faith being "substance" (better: "confidence") is really the efficacious RESULT of the gift of faith FIRSTLY GIVEN.

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance G5287 of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2Co 9:4
Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident G5287 boasting.

2Co 11:17
That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence G5287 of boasting.

Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, G5287 and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence G5287 stedfast unto the end;
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
I can agree here. Faith is being persuaded something is true.

I think this is very clear is scripture that we are saved through faith, that is we respond to the Gospel message, and we are persuaded it is true and then we put our faith in Jesus for salvation.

Faith requires an object it is not some free floating entity.
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What faith requires is this....The Giver.

Luk 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Runningman said:
Hi Ted, good question.

When I add the word conditional or unconditional it makes more sense to me because it reduces the word merit into a simpler and easier to follow idea where there are only two objective possibilities. Merits are someone's qualities and/or abilities.

I think of it like this: when someone is promoted it's normally because of some ability they have, so the promotion is conditional because there are qualifications that must be met before they are promoted. If someone was promoted unmeritoriously then merits wouldn't even be taken into consideration for the promotion; that would be an unconditional promotion.

Merits don't necessarily have to be a positive thing. People can have bad merit too.

So the gospel is for sinners. Being a sinner is a bad merit and it's a quality that someone has; there's a condition. The next condition is that sinners must respond to the gospel in the affirmative way. That's the ability to hear the gospel, understand it, believe it/have faith in it, and repent then God's grace is accessed.

If grace was unmerited favor then there would be no need to take into consideration anything anyone has done/not done and it would defeat the purpose of there being a plan of salvation to begin with. If salvation is necessary, but I have unmerited grace, then I was saved when I was born. This idea of unmerited grace just leads to Universalism and we both agree it's false.

So the idea of unmerited grace doesn't make sense to me at all. That's why grace is merited/conditional - I hope that makes sense. :giggle:

Grace is accessed by faith
Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.
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Grace is always unmerited.

You are again confusing and conflating ..."conditional" and "merit" are two separate words with different meanings.

The act of faith in Jesus non-meritorious. Salvation is never quid pro quo. The act of faith is effectual.

A certain school of thought likes to get around that problem by stating faith is part of the gift of salvation. This contradicts the verbiage.

Merit is about self, when you have faith in Jesus for salvation it is agreeing with God you bring nothing to the table.

When we place our faith in someone else, it demonstrates a lack of faith in ourselves.
Faith in a person is about the object of the faith, the merit of the other person.

Merit and Demerit are also two different concepts btw.
 
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Runningman

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cv5 said:
Wrong.

God's grace is that which BESTOWS GIFT OF FAITH.
Faith is first and foremost A GIFT. Just like every good thing that comes from God.

This chatter about faith being "substance" (better: "confidence") is really the efficacious RESULT of the gift of faith FIRSTLY GIVEN.

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance G5287 of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2Co 9:4
Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident G5287 boasting.

2Co 11:17
That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence G5287 of boasting.

Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, G5287 and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence G5287 stedfast unto the end;
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none of those verses say faith is a gift.

Faith is something you do. I am guessing you subscribe to Calvin’s unconditional election if you think God gives people the faith they need to be saved while letting everyone else not be saved.

Faith is a work you do
John 6
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
What faith requires is this....The Giver.

Luk 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Click to expand...
Nope, nope, nope :p:D

Faith is non-meritorious but it is effectual.

Faith is a condition, this verse is out of context.
 
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Runningman

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HeIsHere said:
Grace is always unmerited.

You are again confusing and conflating ..."conditional" and "merit" are two separate words with different meanings.

The act of faith in Jesus non-meritorious. Salvation is never quid pro quo. The act of faith is effectual.

A certain school of thought likes to get around that problem by stating faith is part of the gift of salvation. This contradicts the verbiage.

Merit is about self, when you have faith in Jesus for salvation it is agreeing with God you bring nothing to the table.

When we place our faith in someone else, it demonstrates a lack of faith in ourselves.
Faith in a person is about the object of the faith, the merit of the other person.

Merit and Demerit are also two different concepts btw.
Click to expand...
No.

If grace was unmerited then Universalism is true. I don’t believe in that.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Runningman said:
none of those verses say faith is a gift.

Faith is something you do. I am guessing you subscribe to Calvin’s unconditional election if you think God gives people the faith they need to be saved while letting everyone else not be saved.

Faith is a work you do
John 6
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Click to expand...

Faith is never a work!

Work is self effort.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Runningman said:
No.

If grace was unmerited then Universalism is true. I don’t believe in that.
Click to expand...

Wrong faith needs to placed in a person, grace is unmerited that is very definition of grace.

There is a condition therefore Universalism cannot be true, but Jesus did die for everyone, but each person needs to appropriate the gift by faith in Jesus.

Scripture states that something is earned it is no longer grace.
 
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Runningman

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HeIsHere said:
Wrong faith needs to placed in a person, grace is unmerited that is very definition of grace.

There is a condition therefore Universalism cannot be true, but Jesus did die for everyone, but each person needs to appropriate the gift by faith in Jesus.

Scripture states that something is earned it is no longer grace.
Click to expand...
Grace doesn’t mean unmerited. You won’t find anything about that in a dictionary, lexicon, or described in the Bible. People can fall from grace too.

Do any of these verses sound like unmerited grace to you?

Galatians 5
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

1 Corinthians 9
27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Hebrews 12
15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

2 Peter 3
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
 
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Runningman

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HeIsHere said:
Faith is never a work!

Work is self effort.
Click to expand...
Jesus said otherwise and went on to explain how. Like the manna from heaven, Jesus is the bread from heaven.

The Israelites gathered and ate their manna and Jesus said we must eat that bread from heaven, not be force fed.

The Israelites would have died if they didn’t eat. In the same way we will die if we don’t eat the bread from heaven. That’s Jesus’ point.

It’s definitely a choice, hence why it’s a work to believe in Jesus. His way is the correct way to understand it.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
Faith is something you do.
John 6
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Click to expand...
1. Faith is not something you DO it is something you HAVE
2. The very verse you used says it is the WORK OF GOD (not your work)

so you are wrong on both accounts
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Runningman said:
As a trained weather forecaster, I might actually disagree with certain things they say, so maybe not the best example to use. :LOL:

So what did God say? Do X things and then He will do X things, right? So our faith is actually in the teachings of Jesus. That’s a pretty safe thing to say right? Well, what did Jesus teach? Didn’t he show us the way? His way is the way. We follow this way believing it’s the way God has assigned to us in order to have eternal life. We have faith God will give us according to His message delivered to us by Jesus and our faith is evidence of that.

Jesus didn’t just say “have faith” and that’s all. The gospels are full of things he said to do and he also warned that if you don’t do them you can perish or not enter the kingdom of God. Our faith is dead without works. This is all through the NT.
Click to expand...
One's faith isn't dead because it isn't accompanied by works. It never existed as is evidenced by the lack of works.
Works in and of themselves are no sure evidence of faith. Read Matt 7:21-23. Those individuals had great works yet lacked faith.
The only true works that evidence genuine salvation are those God does in us. I guarantee you that the Pharisees kept the law outwardly far in excess of you and I. But they did not exercise the internal attributes of love and mercy that can only be produced in us by God.
You seem to believe that by doing outward acts you have genuine faith. I believe my faith is genuine because I see the work that God has wrought in me. And from the work He has done His love is shed abroad in my heart. In other words, it seems you rely on your compliance to the law for evidence that you are saved. I rely on God's work in me to produce obedience. You are relying on your effort. I'm relying on God's efforts. This is what it means to live is Christ.
Hence, your faith is not actually in Jesus, but yourself.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Runningman said:
Jesus said otherwise and went on to explain how. Like the manna from heaven, Jesus is the bread from heaven.

The Israelites gathered and ate their manna and Jesus said we must eat that bread from heaven, not be force fed.

The Israelites would have died if they didn’t eat. In the same way we will die if we don’t eat the bread from heaven. That’s Jesus’ point.

It’s definitely a choice, hence why it’s a work to believe in Jesus. His way is the correct way to understand it.
Click to expand...
the bread from heaven in jesus own words are the words jesus spoke to them

faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

why do you want to boast of your own works?
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
Nope, nope, nope :p:D

Faith is non-meritorious but it is effectual.

Faith is a condition, this verse is out of context.
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No it isn't. I am trying to make a point: that being Jesus is the SOURCE of the gracious gift faith.
Thats is my point, and that is the point of the verse.

One must first recognize who Jesus is (gift #1), then enduring faith (gift #2) is what sustains us, and is in effect the gift of perseverance.

All of this absurdity about how we, in an of ourselves, are mustering up anything having to do with our salvation (including faith) makes Jesus a beggar.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Runningman said:
Jesus said otherwise and went on to explain how. Like the manna from heaven, Jesus is the bread from heaven. The Israelites gathered and ate their manna and Jesus said we must eat that bread from heaven, not be force fed. It’s definitely a choice, hence why it’s a work to believe in Jesus. His way is the correct way to understand it.
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I am not sure this is comparable to spiritual salvation as this was about their physical needs,

Being persuaded is more complex than an act one's will.
A person can believe something against their will.

Faith is not even something that you volitionally do, no matter what someone tells you.

Faith is the passive result of being persuaded, convinced, and convicted that something is true
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
No it isn't. I am trying to make a point: that being Jesus is the SOURCE of the gracious gift faith.
Thats is my point, and that is the point of the verse.

One must first recognize who Jesus is (gift #1), then enduring faith (gift #2) is what sustains us, and is in effect the gift of perseverance.

All of this absurdity about how we, in an of ourselves, are mustering up anything having to do with our salvation (including faith) makes Jesus a beggar.
Click to expand...

I disagree period. Faith is being fully persuaded of the truth.

Doubt precludes faith (Romans 14:23; Jas. 1:6, 7).

A single doubt about the gospel offer will keep one from saving faith. The convicting and convincing ministry of both the Holy Spirit and the Word of God is enough to overcome any doubt. It is when men have hardened their hearts that the word of God is of none effect.

When one issue is answered, hardened men will come up with ten more; they determine to not consider the evidence.
 
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