Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

[ItsAdventageous]

Luther and Melancthon write extensively about the person of Christ through out the book of Concorde. He never mentions Micheal the archangel in those texts.

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560), born Philipp Schwartzerdt, was a German reformer, collaborator with Martin Luther, the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation, intellectual leader of the Lutheran Reformation, and an influential designer of educational systems. He stands next to Luther and Calvin as a reformer, theologian, and molder of Protestantism. Along with Luther, he is the primary founder of Lutheranism.

[Latin] In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius, editus a Philippo Melanthone, Anno 1543. - http://books.google.com/books?id=1llSAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

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"... [Page 122] Eadem de Gog & Magog apud Ezechielem & in Apocalypsi di[c]untur. Ezechiel ait, God & Magog, factis ingentibus vastationibus, tandem in montibus Israel perituros esse.​

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Esti de iudicio ultimo Christi intelligi potest, tamen arbitror significari praelia quae piis erunt in hac ultima mundi senecta cum ..., qui vincentur in montibus Israel, id est, seu in locis ecclesiae in qua uere sonat Euangelium, vel a populus uere inuocantibus deum in fide filii eius Iesu Christi. Non enim vincetur ... nisi per filium dei dimicantem pro sua ecclesia, ut infra clare inquit Daniel. capite 12. Stabit Michael, is est, Christus dux magnus pro filius populi. Sed & apud Daniele & apud Ezechielem magne vastationes denunciantur, quas ut deus mitiget, toto pectore petamus. ..." [Page 122]​

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"... [Page 136] Porro hic locus admoneat nos de praesentia Christi, Quod videlicet filius Dei semper assuerit Patribus quodque vere nunc quoque Ecclesiae adsit, exaudiat & gubernet inuocantes ipsum, Sicut dicit in Euangelio, Ecce, ego vobiscum sum, &c.​

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Item, Ubicunque duo aut tres congregati sunt in nomine meo, ibi sum in medio eorum. [Page 136-137] Item, Ascendit, ut set dona hominibus, &c.​

Gene. 48. inquit Iacob de Christo, Angelus qui eripuit me ex omni malo, benedicat Pueris, &c.​

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Et Joh. 1. dicitur, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt, &c​

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Et hic interest colloquio Angelorum apud Danielem.​

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Et Paulus inquit, Omnes bibebant de spirituali petra eos comitante, Petra autem erat Christus.​

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Sic nos statuere debemus adesse Christum, exaudire, iuuare, & gubernare nos, Idque vocat scriptura regnu Christi: sed infirmitas humanae mentis non potest sic intelligere Regum Christi cogitat de eo, tanquam de absente: non agente aliquid nobiscum. Sed his tenebris humanae rationis repugnandu est, & iuxta testimonia pro millionum, &c iuxta haec exempla credendum, Quod vere adsit nobis, exaudiat, & iuuet inuocantes ipsum.​

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Haec breviter adieci de Interprete vaticinii, que vocat Palmoi, id est, admirabilem quendam, sicut alibi Christus vocatur admirabilis consiliarius. [Page 137-138]​

Est & illud considerandum, quod adese filius Dei, cum sit mentio summae calamitatis, ut significet se in illa iPsalms calamitate futurum esse in excubiis, Sicut infra inquit, In illo tempore Michael, qui stat pro Filiis populi, &c. Haec est magna consolatio, praesertim hoc tempore, scire, quod Christus sit in excubiis pro nobis. ..." [Pages 136-138]​

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"... [Page 214] Alii aliter de sententia huius capitis disputant, sed iudico hanc esse simplicissma enarroationem. Adfuit autem bono angel dux Michale, quem cum him & infra uocet ducem po- [Page 214-215] puli dei, intelligo esse ipsum filium dei, λόγοις, ut a Ioanne nominatur. Hunc ducem & supra scribit interesse colloquio in capite octavo, ubi angelus ab illo domino petit interpretationem visionis.​

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Adesse cum & in hoc colloquio, ac Danielis labra attingere, & consternatum recreare, adparet. Semper enim adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae, eamque, defendisse contra furorem diaboli, certum est. Ideo Ioannes inquit, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt. Loquitur enim non tantum de conditione rerum, sed etiam de gloriosis liberationibus, ecclesiae. Texit populum in mari rubro, & in deserto, Defendit Iosue, Gedeonem, Samuelem, Davidem, Eliam, Elisaeum, & alios fideles gubernatores sui populi.​

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Ideo inquit Iacob, Benedicat his pueris angelus, qui me eripuit ex omnibus malis. Haec uerba conueniunt ad filium dei, qui uere liberat ab omnibus malis, uidelicet a peccato, ab ira dei, a morte aeterna, ab insidiis diaboli. Non enim sine eaussa nominatim dicitur, ab omnibus malus. Haec gloria non potest tribui ministris angelus, qui etiamsi protegunt corpora piorum, tame nec peccatum nec aeternam mortem tollere possunt. ..." [Pages 214-215]​

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"... [Page 370] TERTIA consolatio, quod in his tantis periculis habitura sit ecclesia defensorem filium dei. Ideo hic in textu dicitur, Illo tempore stabit Micael dux magnus pro filiis populi sui. ​

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Hac voce omnes pii se confirment, quam quidem & Christus ipse nobis inculcat, inquiens, Ego vobiscum sum usque ad consummationem mundi. In tanta dissipatione, in tanti aerumnis, pii videntur deserti a deo. ..." [Page 370]​

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"... [Page 371] Dixi autem supra, semper adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae suae. Ideo hic vocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei. Adpellatio nota est. Quis sicut deus, id est, quantus est hic, qui est sicut deus, qui est imago aeterni patris, potens, misericors, liberator, vindex. ..." [Page 371]​

 

[ItsAdventageous]

That's why I have so much respect for the S.D.A. faith, they know their Bible. I dare anyone to goto a Sabbath School Bible Study and determine for yourself. I would say, you would have a 50/50 chance of liking the people there though. It can be a little clicky from my experience.

Anyways, Adventageouos, I just want to encourage you, and keep the faith. Even though the majority seem to be against you.

God bless!

Hahahaa... I like you. Yes, I would say your experience is rather accurate, that's why there needs to be more visitors to add a little more variety so the clique's are not so "clicky". Sometimes, it is just that people are closely knit together, as families, and those who come and go, or only visit once, never get to experience the true closeness. Some are just 'clicky'.

No worries, kinda, I have been in the lion's den several times. Thank you so much for the encouragment. If you were here, I'd invite you to the home I am staying in and have some food (I have been told I make a pretty good vege-pizza, I make the crust from scratch), and fellowship and study anything together. What are your favorite topics (not to derail a thread, but interested)? I love the puzzles of prophecy, the accuracy of history, the intricacies of typology, the master architecture of the sanctuary and the loving truth of the Gospel and redemption in Jesus.

 

[posthuman]

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560), born Philipp Schwartzerdt, was a German reformer, collaborator with Martin Luther, the first systematic theologian of the Protestant Reformation, intellectual leader of the Lutheran Reformation, and an influential designer of educational systems. He stands next to Luther and Calvin as a reformer, theologian, and molder of Protestantism. Along with Luther, he is the primary founder of Lutheranism.

[Latin] In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius, editus a Philippo Melanthone, Anno 1543. - http://books.google.com/books?id=1llSAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

​

"... [Page 122] Eadem de Gog & Magog apud Ezechielem & in Apocalypsi di[c]untur. Ezechiel ait, God & Magog, factis ingentibus vastationibus, tandem in montibus Israel perituros esse.​

​

Esti de iudicio ultimo Christi intelligi potest, tamen arbitror significari praelia quae piis erunt in hac ultima mundi senecta cum ..., qui vincentur in montibus Israel, id est, seu in locis ecclesiae in qua uere sonat Euangelium, vel a populus uere inuocantibus deum in fide filii eius Iesu Christi. Non enim vincetur ... nisi per filium dei dimicantem pro sua ecclesia, ut infra clare inquit Daniel. capite 12. Stabit Michael, is est, Christus dux magnus pro filius populi. Sed & apud Daniele & apud Ezechielem magne vastationes denunciantur, quas ut deus mitiget, toto pectore petamus. ..." [Page 122]​

​

"... [Page 136] Porro hic locus admoneat nos de praesentia Christi, Quod videlicet filius Dei semper assuerit Patribus quodque vere nunc quoque Ecclesiae adsit, exaudiat & gubernet inuocantes ipsum, Sicut dicit in Euangelio, Ecce, ego vobiscum sum, &c.​

​

Item, Ubicunque duo aut tres congregati sunt in nomine meo, ibi sum in medio eorum. [Page 136-137] Item, Ascendit, ut set dona hominibus, &c.​

Gene. 48. inquit Iacob de Christo, Angelus qui eripuit me ex omni malo, benedicat Pueris, &c.​

​

Et Joh. 1. dicitur, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt, &c​

​

Et hic interest colloquio Angelorum apud Danielem.​

​

Et Paulus inquit, Omnes bibebant de spirituali petra eos comitante, Petra autem erat Christus.​

​

Sic nos statuere debemus adesse Christum, exaudire, iuuare, & gubernare nos, Idque vocat scriptura regnu Christi: sed infirmitas humanae mentis non potest sic intelligere Regum Christi cogitat de eo, tanquam de absente: non agente aliquid nobiscum. Sed his tenebris humanae rationis repugnandu est, & iuxta testimonia pro millionum, &c iuxta haec exempla credendum, Quod vere adsit nobis, exaudiat, & iuuet inuocantes ipsum.​

​

Haec breviter adieci de Interprete vaticinii, que vocat Palmoi, id est, admirabilem quendam, sicut alibi Christus vocatur admirabilis consiliarius. [Page 137-138]​

Est & illud considerandum, quod adese filius Dei, cum sit mentio summae calamitatis, ut significet se in illa iPsalms calamitate futurum esse in excubiis, Sicut infra inquit, In illo tempore Michael, qui stat pro Filiis populi, &c. Haec est magna consolatio, praesertim hoc tempore, scire, quod Christus sit in excubiis pro nobis. ..." [Pages 136-138]​

​

"... [Page 214] Alii aliter de sententia huius capitis disputant, sed iudico hanc esse simplicissma enarroationem. Adfuit autem bono angel dux Michale, quem cum him & infra uocet ducem po- [Page 214-215] puli dei, intelligo esse ipsum filium dei, λόγοις, ut a Ioanne nominatur. Hunc ducem & supra scribit interesse colloquio in capite octavo, ubi angelus ab illo domino petit interpretationem visionis.​

​

Adesse cum & in hoc colloquio, ac Danielis labra attingere, & consternatum recreare, adparet. Semper enim adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae, eamque, defendisse contra furorem diaboli, certum est. Ideo Ioannes inquit, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt. Loquitur enim non tantum de conditione rerum, sed etiam de gloriosis liberationibus, ecclesiae. Texit populum in mari rubro, & in deserto, Defendit Iosue, Gedeonem, Samuelem, Davidem, Eliam, Elisaeum, & alios fideles gubernatores sui populi.​

​

Ideo inquit Iacob, Benedicat his pueris angelus, qui me eripuit ex omnibus malis. Haec uerba conueniunt ad filium dei, qui uere liberat ab omnibus malis, uidelicet a peccato, ab ira dei, a morte aeterna, ab insidiis diaboli. Non enim sine eaussa nominatim dicitur, ab omnibus malus. Haec gloria non potest tribui ministris angelus, qui etiamsi protegunt corpora piorum, tame nec peccatum nec aeternam mortem tollere possunt. ..." [Pages 214-215]​

​

"... [Page 370] TERTIA consolatio, quod in his tantis periculis habitura sit ecclesia defensorem filium dei. Ideo hic in textu dicitur, Illo tempore stabit Micael dux magnus pro filiis populi sui. ​

​

Hac voce omnes pii se confirment, quam quidem & Christus ipse nobis inculcat, inquiens, Ego vobiscum sum usque ad consummationem mundi. In tanta dissipatione, in tanti aerumnis, pii videntur deserti a deo. ..." [Page 370]​

​

"... [Page 371] Dixi autem supra, semper adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae suae. Ideo hic vocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei. Adpellatio nota est. Quis sicut deus, id est, quantus est hic, qui est sicut deus, qui est imago aeterni patris, potens, misericors, liberator, vindex. ..." [Page 371]​

My Latin is much better than my German. Thanks

This in particular is straightforward & I concede your point about the historicity:

Ideo hic vocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei.

Tho I still don't agree Michael = Christ.

 

[ItsAdventageous]

My Latin is much better than my German. Thanks

This in particular is straightforward & I concede your point about the historicity:

Ideo hic vocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei.

Tho I still don't agree Michael = Christ.

Thank you. Appreciated. Understand.

 

[posthuman]

Thank you. Appreciated. Understand.

Just BTW -

Absolutely agree "The Angel of the LORD" = Christ ((as in Judges 13, Exodus 3 etc etc)) but not convinced this is the same person as Michael. To me there are key attributes of all those accounts not present in the brief mentions of Michael in scripture, such as His name being hidden and Him being directly called "God"

I admit that this view makes Hebrews 1 more difficult to navigate, but IMO the way the OT so clearly equates the appearance of this particular 'Messenger' with God, and dileneates Him with the 'Ha' make the difference.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

My Latin is much better than my German. Thanks

This in particular is straightforward & I concede your point about the historicity:

Ideo hic vocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei.

Tho I still don't agree Michael = Christ.

It is a comparison, they compared the way Micheal stood as gardian over the nation of Israel. As Christ stands gardian over the Church.
In much the same way they mischaracterize the Bible he is mischaracterizing the words of Melancthon.

 

[PennEd]

Hello P.E.

I have recently showed, by original source documentation that the subject is neither originating with SDA or JW, neither SDA or JW only doctrine. I would ask that you please refrain from attempting to alter the subject from Michael in scripture to denomination.

I have given the reply to Hebrews 1, not ignored it, as some seem to think.

Hebrews 1 is not against the position of the OP, but for it.

Hebrews 1:1-3, reveal that the Son is the highest messenger of the Father, and eternal and uncreated:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1:4,7,14 all reveal that there are other messengers, which are created. These are in the office or position as the very "fellows" (Heb. 1:9) of the Son, who also has the position or office of messenger along with them.

The context of Hebrews 1:4,7,14 are of the created ("maketh") messengers ("angels"), not of the uncreated and eternal angel (Messenger) of the Father, known as the Son.

The word "angels" only means (in English, Hebrew or koine Greek, messengers, ambassador or that which carries a message from or for another). Uncreated and created are not part of the definition of the word. Context determines any further identification of the being, etc, spoken of.

In the case of the Son, He is the "angel (messenger) of the covenant", Malachi 3:1, and is identified as such throughout scripture. Since He is an "angel" (messenger), and He who is the "express image" of the Father, He is the Highest Messenger, for who else can it be questioned, Who is like unto God? The devil, in each case, when facing the Son, whether in Daniel, Zechariah, Jude or Revelation or elsewhere, must always battle that question, "Who is like unto God?", while the devil "Who is like unto the Beast?" (Genesis 3:1, Revelation 13:4).

God SPECIFICALLY makes an unequivocal difference between His Son, and angels. Michael, is UNEQUIVOCALLY an angel.

You are severely twisting the Word of God to try and fit your heresy.

God knowing this type of heresy would present itself inspired Hebrews 1 to make sure those preaching a different Gospel, that His Son is an angelic being, is countered.

We all know what the word "angel" means. And in some instances in Scriptures it does mean just "messenger".

But angels are also a created "race" with different ranks, abilities, and offices. There is NO way to twist Hebrews 1 to mean anything but Jesus is DIFFERENT and ABOVE created angels. Which Michael is.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

1 Timothy 3:16
God was manifested in the flesh

That's not a very good proof text for your purpose. It's just a reiteration of
John 3:34, John 10:38, and Col 2:9 etc. And besides, it's not all that difficult
to show that Jesus is biologically related to David, and from thence to Eve,
and to Adam and the dust with which Adam was constructed.

It's been my experience that most Christians are content with Jesus being
fully God but not all that content with him being fully Man because that
drags Adam into the picture and the ramifications associated with the
forbidden fruit incident. It also implies that the Word of John 1:1-3 created
his own human self. Although I don't see that as a problem; others do.
_

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Adonai, the preincarnate Jesus told Moses in Exodus Chapter 6 His real name was YHWH.

YHWH is the Creator of all Life.

Nowhere in any reference does Michael and YHWH equal the same being.

Michael is a Watcher and nothing more.

 

[posthuman]

.



That's not a very good proof text for your purpose. It's just a reiteration of
John 3:34, John 10:38, and Col 2:9 etc. And besides, it's not all that difficult
to show that Jesus is biologically related to David, and from thence to Eve,
and to Adam and the dust with which Adam was constructed.

It's been my experience that most Christians are content with Jesus being
fully God but not all that content with him being fully Man because that
drags Adam into the picture and the ramifications associated with the
forbidden fruit incident. It also implies that the Word of John 1:1-3 created
his own human self. Although I don't see that as a problem; others do.
_

disagree.
it very clearly states that it is "God" manifest in the flesh in the person of "Jesus."
hence directly contrary to the modernist kenosis assertion that Jesus is either stripped of deity, never had deity, or only became divine upon glorification.

it is proof-positive.

it is my experience that Christians who emphasize the humanity of Christ do so at the utter neglect & outright rejection of His ever-present deity: however, the testimony of scripture as well as from the earliest times the agreement of the entire church in confession is that He is simultaneously 'very man of very man & very God of very God' -- it is only the fully-divine & fully-sinless-human Christ Who is an acceptable sacrifice for the sin of the whole world.
another witness -- Zechariah 12: it is YHWH Himself Who is pierced.

the fact of His humanity does not negate His deity.
that is exactly the 'great mystery of godliness'

 

[justahumanbeing]

The very names are different. Mi-cha-el literally means "who is like God?' And the name Jesus could be translated to "God is salvation".

It is true that Michael is the Commander of God's army as He reveals himself to Joshua son of Nun in the Old Testament.

Michael was not as high ranking as Lucifer was until Lucifer rebelled because of God's plan for man to be saved and God chose to be born in Human form. Lucifer rebelled by saying that He would not serve God.

Thus the rebellion and Michael fighting in God's name. That's how Michael became the Commander of God's armies. Don't they say 9 Choirs of angels? Or is it 7? I'm not sure. Michael was one of the Archangels and they are one of the lower ranks. But God glorified Michael for championing God's will and showing obedience to God by making Michael commander of the Heavenly armies (All the choirs of angels).

Jesus is God. Word Incarnate. There is no name that can equal that of Jesus'. All angels including Michael are God's to command. So many things can lead to this conclusion. Like Jesus having a physical human body. Jesus is Man and God. Angels are spiritual beings and they have no body, let alone a human body like our Lord Jesus does.

The first commandment applies here. "I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other Gods before me." Michael is not God. Jesus is God. That's the difference. Careful you all. Know the God you worship and worship only Him. God bless.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I dont know why mods are continuing to tolerate this heresy

 

[posthuman]

Revelation 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.



Why does Michael fight Satan with "his" holy angels but Christ fight Satan with "all" the holy angels?
Does this define a set/subset structure?

 

[CS1]

That's why I have so much respect for the S.D.A. faith, they know their Bible. I dare anyone to goto a Sabbath School Bible Study and determine for yourself. I would say, you would have a 50/50 chance of liking the people there though. It can be a little clicky from my experience.

Anyways, Adventageouos, I just want to encourage you, and keep the faith. Even though the majority seem to be against you.

God bless!

The legalism of SDA will not save you. the majority here as you say hold to the word of God And Jesus as the only way who is God as the word of God tell us.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hello Pilgramshope, and thank you.

Love, Walter

Hello brother and your welcome thanks for the posts you present for discussion also

 

[Webers.Home]

.

I dont know why mods are continuing to tolerate this heresy

To my knowledge; Christian Chat's terms of service don't prohibit heresy;
which is a good thing because heresy is typically subjective rather than
objective. In other words: whose thoughts would they cancel; your thoughts
or those of the folks who disagree with you? And what about management's
thoughts? Let's not be encouraging Big Brother oversight.

Terms Of Service
_

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Revelation 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.



Why does Michael fight Satan with "his" holy angels but Christ fight Satan with "all" the holy angels?
Does this define a set/subset structure?

they are all Christs angels . Micheal is a chief and leader over them even Micheal served the lord Jesus there are also legions and divisions of angels groups with leaders spoken of in scripture like an army battalions and legions

micheal is most likely the angel God placed to rule over isreal in the ot because Daniel later calls him Micheal the archangel , Israel’s prince “

jesus is the man child taken to the throne the angels are his servants and soldiers

“And she brought forth a man child,( son of man )? who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Micheal is a chief angel a minister and servant of the lord God Jesus Christ

“But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is the one who’s words are being spoken about Micheal , Israel’s angelic prince All the angels worship Jesus , Micheal Is a leader and captain among them

 

[oyster67]

Jesus hasn't always been divine.

Has.

Philippians 2:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

It neither says nor implies that He relinquished His divinity. He was still the Son of God...

Matthew 3:17
“And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

 

[oyster67]

Philippians 2:5-8
Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty Himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, He humbled himself


Clearly pre-existing as God before humbling Himself to be made in the form of a man.

I see that you beat me to the punch.

 

[oyster67]

At that time, the Word divested himself of deity so that his flesh could come into the world as a normal Jewish man instead of a divine Jewish man.

The blood of a "normal Jewish man" could not atone for the sins of the world.