Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[TheDivineWatermark]

We know what Paul is addressing because he then begins to explain the process in Chapter 4.

This is a LETTER so it's a continuous process and thought.

I totally AGREE!

It's just that you and I are coming to differing CONCLUSIONS. LOL


I see it as Jesus taking us to the BEMA (where "crowns / stephanos" are awarded--like Paul said, "IN THAT DAY"... and not to him only!)




Whereas, you see it as us going up and then immediately down (Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9). I disagree.

We don't RETURN to the earth until HE DOES (FOR "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" on the earth, i.e. the MK age--Col3:4!! "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"!!!), "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12:35-36,37,38,40,42-44 parallel Matt24:42-51 [which is parallel Lk17:27,29 and thereabouts]





[IOW, I see the BEMA occurring (UP THERE) BETWEEN those points]

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

So the Greek word here for "before the face" is G1715...

[quoting from BibleHub... under the heading of Thayer's Greek Lexicon]

[G1715]

b. before, in the presence of, equivalent to opposite to, over against one: στῆναι, Matthew 27:11; ὁμολογεῖν and ἀρνεῖσθαι (Buttmann, 176 (153)), Matthew 10:32; Matthew 26:70; Luke 12:8,(9 Lachmann); also Galatians 2:14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:9, 13; before one, i. e. at his tribunal: Matthew 25:32; Matthew 27:11; Luke 21:36; Acts 18:17; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Thessalonians 2:19 [...]


[end quoting from BibleHub; bold and underline emphasis mine]







... so as I see it, Chpt 4 then goes on to describe the "HOW" of it (we will not "PRECEDE" those having fallen asleep through Jesus... ALL of us [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] will go UP in the "SNATCH" at the SAME MOMENT)

LOOK AND COMPREHEND!!

From 2nd Thessalonians 2: in my attachment:

Notice Verse 1 explains the Coming of the Lord + OUR GATHERING.

Now look at NEXT VERSE, Paul tells us this is the DAY OF CHRIST, which we know is the Second Coming.

So Paul shows us at the DAY OF THE LORD we are also GATHERED to Him [[the Rapture]].

So Paul clarifies in LETTER 2 when we are Raptured it's at the DAY OF THE LORD which is the Second Coming.

So no secret Rapture and that False Doctrine needs to be sent back to HELL where it originated.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ "The Day of the Lord" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" (the day of Christ's RETURN / Second Coming Rev19--though "the DOTL" INCLUDES that point in time ALSO). We know that it ARRIVES WELL-BEFORE that point, because of what Paul says in both 1Th5:1-3 [I've explained in numerous post posts] AND what he explains regarding the "false claim" in 2Th2:2 [purporting] that it "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]".

It hadn't.

And Paul explains WHY.






The "false claim" was NOT that "JESUS HIMSELF" had already come!






[Again, "the Day of the Lord" is an EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD which INCLUDES the JUDGMENTs unfolding over the course of the 7-yr Trib; INCLUDES ALSO His Second Coming to the earth; and INCLUDES ALSO the ENTIRE MK age (the "BLESSINGs" aspect)--it is NOT merely "A SINGULAR 24-HR DAY" kind of day]

 

[cv5]

Hello! [Dense-one, or dim-wit here! (me!)]



Here's how I'm seeing that verse you speak of, referring to 1Th3:13 (b/f the chpt 4 "rapture / caught up / snatch" verse)...

Consider:


Consider the following versions of this verse (and see how it compares with another verse or verses I'll place below this verse):

1Thess3:13 -

International Standard Version

Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.


Literal Emphasis Translation

To confirm your hearts, blameless in holiness before the face of our God and Father in the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen.


Weymouth New Testament

Thus He will build up your characters, so that you will be faultlessly holy in the presence of our God and Father at the Coming of our Lord Jesus with all His holy ones.




Consider HOW THIS ^ CORRESPONDS with the following verse (I've posted numerous times):

2Cor4:14 -

Holman Christian Standard Bible

We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you. ["present us" means... WHAT? WHERE?]



[and]

1Cor6:14 [recalling also v.3! in same context] -

Berean Literal Bible

And by His power God has both raised up the Lord, and will raise us out.






Are we sure which direction 1Th3:13 is speaking to, when it says, "IN the coming [/presence / parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ with [accompanied-with] all His holy ones [set-apart ones]"?


For example, in Dan7:13 it says,

Young's Literal Translation

I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was one coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near.




It seems to me that (unless we consider ALL the related passages Paul is covering in all his epistles... and there are many), that we could just be assuming things that could be incorrect... I mean, what I've presented above (PLUS the fact of what 1Cor6:3 says in a close-context of one of the verses I supplied) sure seems to correspond more with what we see in Revelation 4-5 (with the "24 elders" [wearing "crowns" and sitting on "thrones"] saying "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood out-of EVERY..." in a scene just b/f Jesus opens the first seal [the AC / man of sin] at the START of the "7 yr period"... yeah.)

"in the presence of our God and Father"

Totally agree. Basically Christ presenting His raptured holy ones (this rapture now being a past event) at its final destination, the throne of God the Father.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

^ "The Day of the Lord" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" (the day of Christ's RETURN / Second Coming Rev19--though "the DOTL" INCLUDES that point in time ALSO). We know that it ARRIVES WELL-BEFORE that point, because of what Paul says in both 1Th5:1-3 AND what he explains regarding the "false claim" in 2Th2:2 [purporting] that it "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative]".

It hadn't.

And Paul explains WHY.






[Again, "the Day of the Lord" is an EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD which INCLUDES the JUDGMENTs unfolding over the course of the 7-yr Trib; INCLUDES ALSO His Second Coming to the earth; and INCLUDES ALSO the ENTIRE MK age (the "BLESSINGs" aspect)--it is NOT merely "A SINGULAR 24-HR DAY" kind of day]

Not the point I am making because you don't want to understand what is being said in Verse 1 and 2.

Paul is saying the Gathering or Rapture happens at the SECOND Coming of the Lord.

So that makes Pre-Trib Rapture a False Doctrine.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"in the presence of our God and Father"

Totally agree. Basically Christ presenting His raptured holy ones (this rapture now being a past event) at its final destination, the throne of God the Father.

YES!!

If one starts off with the wrong footing here (1Th3:13), they are led far afield from the path that the NEXT VERSES are talking about!! (i.e. Chpt 4!!--the EXPLANATION of "HOW" it will all unfold... i.e. "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... the "SNATCH"... for a specific PURPOSE / END-OBJECTIVE...)

 

[cv5]

We know what Paul is addressing because he then begins to explain the process in Chapter 4.

This is a LETTER so it's a continuous process and thought.

Treat it like it is, a LETTER DESCRIBING how this will take place at the SECOND Coming of Christ.

Actually, 1 Thes 3:13 is the intended result of us keeping the exhortation of verse 13. With added bonus material at the end of it to keep us motivated....

It really is not meant for any other purpose than that IMO.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Actually, 1 Thes 3:13 is the intended result of us keeping the exhortation of verse 13. With added bonus material at the end of it to keep us motivated....

It really is not meant for any other purpose than that IMO.

Which is why the rest of LETTER 1 and into LETTER 2 Paul talks about the Second Coming of the Lord, which he introduced in Chapter 3.

Try Again!

 

[cv5]

edit

Actually, 1 Thes 3:13 is the intended result of us keeping the exhortation of verse 12. With added bonus material at the end of it to keep us motivated....

It really is not meant for any other purpose than that IMO.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not the point I am making because you don't want to understand what is being said in Verse 1 and 2.

And as I see it, you are incorrectly EQUATING Paul's "corrective" Subject (v.1) that HE IS BRINGING to bear on the "false claim" (v.2) he's cautioning them about "[purporting] that The Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"--which is [starts out with] a period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING upon the earth, OVER SOME TIME (i.e. the Tribulation Period lasting "7 years" is the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF IT, not even its ENTIRETY, for it goes on to INCLUDE the ENTIRE MK age also!)

Paul is saying the Gathering or Rapture happens at the SECOND Coming of the Lord.

No he isn't conveying such.

He IS supplying [reiterating] A SPECIFIC SEQUENCE though!

(one which AGREES with both his previous letter, as well as being in agreement with the SEQUENCE provided in ALL OTHER RELATED passages on this Subject)








By "SEQUENCE," I mean, How Paul's Verse 1 Subject "FITS" [relates, TIME-WISE / SEQUENCE-WISE] with the Subject matter concerning the "TIME-PERIOD" the false claim in v.2 comprised.

ONE THING must take place "FIRST" (before it could ever be truthfully / rightly said that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT")!

And he REPEATS this SEQUENCE 3x in this passage! (<--Paul's v.1 Subject [vertical-happening!] he is BRINGING to bear on this problem of the "false claim" and how it FITS time-wise to that [v.2] earthly-located [horizontal-happening!] time-period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth)

because you don't want to understand what is being said in Verse 1 and 2.

You are misapprehending what point Paul is conveying here, because you CONFLATE v.1 and v.2!

 

[cv5]

YES!!

If one starts off with the wrong footing here (1Th3:13), they are led far afield from the path that the NEXT VERSES are talking about!! (i.e. Chpt 4!!--the EXPLANATION of "HOW" it will all unfold... i.e. "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... the "SNATCH"... for a specific PURPOSE / END-OBJECTIVE...)

Totally agree. The mechanics without the final destination....

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

And as I see it, you are incorrectly EQUATING Paul's "corrective" Subject (v.1) that HE IS BRINGING to bear on the "false claim" (v.2) he's cautioning them about "[purporting] that The Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"--which is [starts out with] a period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING upon the earth, OVER SOME TIME (i.e. the Tribulation Period lasting "7 years" is the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF IT, not even its ENTIRETY, for it goes on to INCLUDE the ENTIRE MK age also!)



No he isn't conveying such.

He IS supplying [reiterating] A SPECIFIC SEQUENCE though!

(one which AGREES with both his previous letter, as well as being in agreement with the SEQUENCE provided in ALL OTHER RELATED passages on this Subject)








By "SEQUENCE," I mean, How Paul's Verse 1 Subject "FITS" [relates, TIME-WISE / SEQUENCE-WISE] with the Subject matter concerning the "TIME-PERIOD" the false claim in v.2 comprised.

ONE THING must take place "FIRST" (before it could ever be truthfully / rightly said that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT")!

And he REPEATS this SEQUENCE 3x in this passage! (<--Paul's v.1 Subject [vertical-happening!] he is BRINGING to bear on this problem of the "false claim" and how it FITS time-wise to that [v.2] earthly-located [horizontal-happening!] time-period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth)





You are misapprehending what point Paul is conveying here, because you CONFLATE v.1 and v.2!

Paul is being direct and blunt.

You make it up as you need to believe your lies.

 

[cv5]

Paul is being direct and blunt.
You make it up as you need to believe your lies.

Bro....that was uncalled for. Can you find it in your heart to apologize?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
YES!!

If one starts off with the wrong footing here (1Th3:13), they are led far afield from the path that the NEXT VERSES are talking about!! (i.e. Chpt 4!!--the EXPLANATION of "HOW" it will all unfold... i.e. "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... the "SNATCH"... for a specific PURPOSE / END-OBJECTIVE...)

Totally agree. The mechanics without the final destination....

Well said! (IF I'm understanding your reply correctly [I think I am!], in relation to my post... if so, AGREED!)




Right!



____________

Another related matter (I'm always pointing out) is the "WAS FOUND" word used in Rev5:4, indicating that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded... The SAME word used in the latter parts of Acts re: when Paul was brought before their human / earthly "bema" !

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another related matter (I'm always pointing out) is the "WAS FOUND" word used in Rev5:4, indicating that a "searching judgment" has already been concluded... The SAME word used in the latter parts of Acts re: when Paul was brought before their human / earthly "bema" !

... which perfectly aligns with the point I've been making in my Posts #418, #420, #421, and #426

(esp. re: 1Th3:13 and what it's actually "about"! as it leads into the explanation of "HOW" in the following verses, i.e. chpt 4! The "SNATCH!"--ALL of His "ONE BODY" at the SAME MOMENT! "UP, UP, and AWAY!" WOO!)

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

A 4 part thread series arguing against God's promise.
1 Thessalonians 4

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Bro....that was uncalled for. Can you find it in your heart to apologize?

Indeed!

He is free to believe as he will. I apologize for saying what I believe.

 

[oyster67]

There is nothing anti-post trib in that verse. What we do see in the Bible is the New Jerusalem descending after 1000 years. If you are convinced that that doesn't satisfy what Jesus said and that we must go to heaven, there is still no evidence for Jesus coming back before the tribulation in the Bible.

Nothing that suggests anything other than pre-trib in any verse. It is the only logical and sensible scenario. No evidence for rapture after the tribulation in the Bible. The Bible goes into great detail about what happens in heaven before the Second Coming.
Post-trib Resurrection? Yes.
Post-trib Rapture? No.

 

[presidente]

Nothing that suggests anything other than pre-trib in any verse. It is the only logical and sensible scenario. No evidence for rapture after the tribulation in the Bible. The Bible goes into great detail about what happens in heaven before the Second Coming.
Post-trib Resurrection? Yes.
Post-trib Rapture? No.

You haven't shown any verses at all that put the rapture at the tribulation.

Scripture puts the resurrection of the dead, the rapture, and the destruction of the lawless one at the coming of the Lord. Read Revelation 19, we read about the Rider on a white horse, the King of kings and Lord of lords, then the beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire, then we read about the 'first resurrection', then the thousand years. This is toward the end of the book of Revelation.

But there is no mention of the rapture happening before the tribulation in Revelation or any other book. This idea comes from taking a pre-trib rapture theory, external to scripture, and trying to interpret scripture around this idea. But the theory can't be found in the pages of scripture.

The coming of Son of man is clearly set 'after the tribulation' in Matthew 24. That is when the gathering of the elect takes place.

 

[oyster67]

At what appearing [of Christ] did we ascend to heaven if not at His 2nd coming? At His 2nd coming we go up not come down.

This is where the post-trib train derails.

I know that is what you mean, you suppose after the rap there will be 7 years of tribulation in which all evil is destroyed, then we come back after the 7 years.

Yes.
Congratulations.
Please take the red pill now.