Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Magenta]

I'm assuming that you mean turning to the Lord by the Lord, and not of ourselves.

Jesus' Words in John 6:65

 

[CorrectiveLens]

Is this a restatement of the chicken and egg controversy?

The chicken came first because Adam and Eve were created as adults (just like all the other animals) and then were told to be fruitful and multiply.

 

[brightfame52]

Unrelated - "GRACE" (unmerited favor) is the reason why you weren't sent to hell immediately when you sinned the first time, and fell short of God's glory. GRACE kicked in. and you were allowed to survive physically long enough to be Born Again. So was I.

Grace saves period ! And Election is of Grace.

 

[Cameron143]

The chicken came first because Adam and Eve were created as adults (just like all the other animals) and then were told to be fruitful and multiply.

Thanks. I was just joking around.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Grace saves period ! And Election is of Grace.

Since you and I (and everybody else) merit NOTHING but hellfire, obviously everything for everybody is of grace.

And CONVICTION of SIN, and of Judgement is the beginning of FAITH (God's WORD to us.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

We are all under condemnation from birth.

That's the 'ol "Original Sin" foolishness.

Deut 24:16, 2 kings 14:6, 2 chr 25:4

We all are condemned by OUR OWN SIN - not Adam's or anybody else's.

And "Age of accountability" is another utterly PHONY theology.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​

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2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​

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3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​

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4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​

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5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

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6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​

Click to expand...​

Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​

I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

True enough. If everyone was meant to be saved they wouldn't need saving . They would be in God's grace the moment they're born.

 

[Magenta]

That's the 'ol "Original Sin" foolishness.

Deut 24:16, 2 kings 14:6, 2 chr 25:4

We all are condemned by OUR OWN SIN - not Adam's or anybody else's.

And "Age of accountability" is another utterly PHONY theology.

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also
one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:18

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through
sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that
every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19-20

Who is under the law, Bob?

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

 

[rogerg]

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also
one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:18

So by that, you're saying that everyone has been saved?

 

[Magenta]

So by that, you're saying that everyone has been saved?

I quoted Scripture. Do you not recognize it? I gave the verse citation and everything

PS~ Do you believe as Bob does that man is only condemned after he sins?

Or is he born into a state that requires being born again of the Holy Spirit of God?

And if not born again, he passes into the second death?

 

[Cameron143]

I quoted Scripture. Do you not recognize it? I gave the verse citation and everything

Perhaps because you quoted Romans 8:1 without citation you created a disturbance in the force.

 

[rogerg]

I quoted Scripture. Do you not recognize it? I gave the verse citation and everything

Yes, but according to the Bible's instruction for its own interpretation, it tells us that you just can't use only one verse.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[rogerg]

I quoted Scripture. Do you not recognize it? I gave the verse citation and everything

PS~ Do you believe as Bob does that man is only condemned after he sins?

Or is he born into a state that requires being born again of the Holy Spirit of God?

And if not born again, he passes into the second death?

Man sins from the womb.
If God hadn't chosen him to salvation, then yes, he passes to the second death.

** modified my reply slightly**

 

[Magenta]

Yes, but according to the Bible's instruction for its own interpretation, it tells us that you just can't use only one verse.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That is why I gave multiple verses showing that man is born into a state that is condemned
before God, which is why he needs to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God in order to be
reconciled to God and attain to life ever after. Ending with how there is now no condemnation
for those in Christ Jesus (for without faith it is impossible to please God). Bob keeps saying that is not so.

 

[Runningman]

Man sins from the womb.
If God hadn't chosen him to salvation, then yes, he passes to the second death.

** modified my reply slightly**

Did John the Baptist sin from the womb?

Luke 1
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

 

[rogerg]

That is why I gave multiple verses showing that man is born into a state that is condemned
before God, which is why he needs to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God in order to be
reconciled to God and attain to life ever after. Ending with how there is now no condemnation
for those in Christ Jesus (for without faith it is umpossible to please God). Bob keeps saying that is not so.

Hmmm - okay, I guess I came into the conversation in the middle without paying attention, and missed your
earlier post(s). When I read this I thought you were stating your belief. Guess not.

" Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also
one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. Romans 5:18

 

[rogerg]

Did John the Baptist sin from the womb?

Luke 1
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

Yes, and it is also possible to be saved in/from the womb too.

 

[Magenta]

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

That verse is often taken out of context. It concerns those who wrote Scripture.

 

[rogerg]

That verse is often taken out of context. It concerns those who wrote Scripture.

Not sure what you mean? Context:


[1Co 2:12 KJV] 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Magenta]

When I read this I thought you were stating your belief. Guess not.

I am not sure how you missed the verse citation... which does support my belief, btw.