Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[presidente]

Correct. The fact of which I demonstrated in an earlier post. Nobody gets raptured in the book of Revelation chapter 6 and beyond. The Church is clearly shown to be in heaven in chapters 4 and 5.

Saints in heaven are calling out for their blood to be avenged in chapter 6. There is absolutely no Biblical reason to exclude the saints during the tribulation as being a part of the 'church.' II Thessalonians 1 shows us that the church (addressing the church of the Thessalonians) will receive rest from tribulation when Jesus comes. Revelation just uses 'church' to deal with assemblies in specific locations. That's the way the term is used in the passage. Some interpret those to also refer to church ages or whatever. But the term 'church' is not used in the book of Revelation for the concept of the church universal or the church militant, or the later term 'church throughout time and space' as it is in Pauls later writings. This is consistent with the way 'church' is used in Acts, also. When it is talking about holy believers everywhere, kit calls them 'saints.'

But dealing with a specific assembly, Paul uses 'church' to refer to those who will receive rest from tribulation at the revelation of Christ, when Christ returns executing vengeance on them that believe not, when He _comes__ to be glorified in the saints. It doesn't say he gives the saints rest and comes back and then executes vengeance after He leaves or after He returns a second time. When He comes, He gives the saints rest and executes vengeance on them that believe not.

Pre-trib is based on assuming a pre-trib rapture and trying to read it inot passages, propping it up with lose weak arguments like you are using, while disregarding rather direct statements of scripture.

It is NOT reasonable to assume that one passage about the coming of the Lord is a separate event from another passage about the coming of the Lord.... not without some good evidence for it. And there is no good solid evidence anywhere in the Bible for a rapture happening before the tribulation. But we see Jesus telling His own disciples of the coming of the Son of Man. We see that coming of the Son of Man happens 'after the tribulation of those days' which is earlier described as 'great tribulation', that the elect would be gathered.

70th week of Daniel......the unleashing of God's wrath upon the earth dwellers. Something the Church shall never experience.

Wrath means anger, not bad times. God is able to protect individuals, and if He judges those on the earth, He is not angry at those He is not angry at.

Why would you think God is angry at the saints who are here during the tribulation. Isn't that what you are implying?

The post tribbers lose yet another debate. Always have always will.....

Your arguments are weak but you boast, and it is unbecoming.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

Hi, justpassinthrough.

I have a question regarding what you've put ^ .

Am I wrong in assuming that, since you've bolded two parts in that sentence (consistent with the bolding in the rest of your post), you believe the bolded parts take place at the same time-slot (at Christ's Second Coming Rev19)?

Or do you not believe that? And if not, why not... and (instead) what kind of time-frame might you see intervening between the two bolded portions and what is your biblical reasoning for that view?

Thanks = )




[I think one poster believes these two items both occur at the same time... but I forget WHO]

 

[cv5]

Saints in heaven are calling out for their blood to be avenged in chapter 6. There is absolutely no Biblical reason to exclude the saints during the tribulation as being a part of the 'church.' II Thessalonians 1 shows us that the church (addressing the church of the Thessalonians) will receive rest from tribulation when Jesus comes. Revelation just uses 'church' to deal with assemblies in specific locations. That's the way the term is used in the passage. Some interpret those to also refer to church ages or whatever. But the term 'church' is not used in the book of Revelation for the concept of the church universal or the church militant, or the later term 'church throughout time and space' as it is in Pauls later writings. This is consistent with the way 'church' is used in Acts, also. When it is talking about holy believers everywhere, kit calls them 'saints.'

But dealing with a specific assembly, Paul uses 'church' to refer to those who will receive rest from tribulation at the revelation of Christ, when Christ returns executing vengeance on them that believe not, when He _comes__ to be glorified in the saints. It doesn't say he gives the saints rest and comes back and then executes vengeance after He leaves or after He returns a second time. When He comes, He gives the saints rest and executes vengeance on them that believe not.

Pre-trib is based on assuming a pre-trib rapture and trying to read it inot passages, propping it up with lose weak arguments like you are using, while disregarding rather direct statements of scripture.

It is NOT reasonable to assume that one passage about the coming of the Lord is a separate event from another passage about the coming of the Lord.... not without some good evidence for it. And there is no good solid evidence anywhere in the Bible for a rapture happening before the tribulation. But we see Jesus telling His own disciples of the coming of the Son of Man. We see that coming of the Son of Man happens 'after the tribulation of those days' which is earlier described as 'great tribulation', that the elect would be gathered.



Wrath means anger, not bad times. God is able to protect individuals, and if He judges those on the earth, He is not angry at those He is not angry at.

Why would you think God is angry at the saints who are here during the tribulation. Isn't that what you are implying?



Your arguments are weak but you boast, and it is unbecoming.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of a "rapture" a "translation" of still living mortal bodies during the tribulation or Second Coming. All that is spoken of is a resurrection of the ALREADY DEAD.

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from G1537 (OUT OF) the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from G1537 (OUT OF) the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

ALL trib saints DIE before they are resurrected. All OT saints are ALREADY DEAD then are resurrected. Living trib believers and Israelites DO NOT GET RAPTURED at the SC.....they go on to populate planet earth.

ONLY the Church (those alive at the pre-trib rapture event) gets translated while still in their mortal bodies!
For the simple reason that only the Church is Spirit indwelt.

Presidente...if you have Scriptural evidence to the contrary....have at it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

• when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,

The wicked, including the antichrist will be destroyed at the coming of the Lord.

When it comes to the wicked / unsaved at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, Luke 17:27,29 uses the Greek word "G622 - apollymi - destroyed" [all].

When it come to "the lawless one" ("the man of sin") at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, 2Th2:8b uses the Greek word "G2673 - katargéō - annul, bring to naught, bring to an end... (kjv)destroy"

[quoting from BibleHub, for the latter word ^ ]

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

[and]

2 Thessalonians 2:8 V-FIA-3S
GRK: αὐτοῦ καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ
NAS: of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance
KJV: and shall destroy with the brightness
INT: of him and annul by the appearing

[end quoting from BibleHub]





However, the Greek word used in 1Thess5:3 is "G3639 - olethros - destruction" (used also in 1Tim6:9, see below):

[quoting from BibleHub]

1 Timothy 6:9 N-AMS
GRK: ἀνθρώπους εἰς ὄλεθρον καὶ ἀπώλειαν
NAS: plunge men into ruin and destruction.
KJV: men in destruction and perdition.
INT: men into ruin and destruction

[and]

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

[end quoting from BibleHub]




Note: "ruination" can unfold over time... it doesn't necessarily mean struck dead that instant (same as in 1Tim6:9... which verse distinguishes between "ruin [G3939]" and the other Greek word used in that verse "[G684] apōleian / apóleia - destruction / perdition").



Bear in mind that 1Th5:3 (with its referring to the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time period) ALSO speaks of it as being "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman with child... and Jesus spoke of that very thing, when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which PRECEDE and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (IOW, they do not COMMENCE at the moment of His RETURN to the earth Rev19, but instead commence some time PRIOR to that point).



The INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" Paul is referencing in 1Th5:3 (which KICKS OFF "the day of the Lord" time period) is the SAME thing Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 -- "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

[cv5]

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.



But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

• when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,

The wicked, including the antichrist will be destroyed at the coming of the Lord.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8





JPT

Here you go bro. A critical study everyone should be acquainted with: "birth pang" "birth pangs" "hosper"

Search results for query: birth pang - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Search results for query: hosper - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

 

[Nehemiah6]

The most relevant scripture is the Lord "after the tribulation of those days ... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds" Matt. 24.

How come you missed this verse? For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Tribulation is followed by the Great Tribulation (also mentioned in Rev 7:14). These periods have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church or the Rapture.

 

[presidente]

There is absolutely ZERO evidence of a "rapture" a "translation" of still living mortal bodies during the tribulation or Second Coming. All that is spoken of is a resurrection of the ALREADY DEAD.

What point are you trying to make? No one is arguing for a rapture of mortal bodies. Paul tells of believers bodies being transformed. Read I Corinthians 15. The question is when that happens. The rapture happens AFTER the dead in Christ rise. And the 'first resurrection' happens toward the END of the book of Revelation, after we read about the King of Kings and Lord of Lords on appearing.

The Bible does not teach us that the church is resurrected before the first resurrection. That doesn't even make sense.

The Bible does not teach us that Jesus comes back before the second coming. It does teach that the rapture happens at the Lord's coming.

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from G1537 (OUT OF) the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from G1537 (OUT OF) the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

ALL trib saints DIE before they are resurrected. All OT saints are ALREADY DEAD then are resurrected. Living trib believers and Israelites DO NOT GET RAPTURED at the SC.....they go on to populate planet earth.

The Bible does not teach your theory. It teaches that the dead in Christ rise first and that they that are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord at the air, and sets the first resurrection right before the thousand years at the last chapters of the book of Revelation.

ONLY the Church (those alive at the pre-trib rapture event) gets translated while still in their mortal bodies!

The Bible does not add an extra return of Christ or say anything about a pretrib rapture event. Read Matthew 24. After the tribulation, then the coming of the Son of man and the gathering of the elect. No man knows the day of the hour of the coming of the Son of Man... which happens after the tribulation. Read Matthew 24. As the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. The coming of the Son of Man is after the tribulation. At the coming of the Son of Man one shall be taken and the other left. And the coming of the Son of man is after the tribulation.

Stop reading pre-trib theories and read the Bible. Pre-trib does not fit.

 

[presidente]

When it comes to the wicked / unsaved at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, Luke 17:27,29 uses the Greek word "G622 - apollymi - destroyed" [all].

When it come to "the lawless one" ("the man of sin") at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, 2Th2:8b uses the Greek word "G2673 - katargéō - annul, bring to naught, bring to an end... (kjv)destroy"

[quoting from BibleHub, for the latter word ^ ]

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

[and]

2 Thessalonians 2:8 V-FIA-3S
GRK: αὐτοῦ καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ
NAS: of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance
KJV: and shall destroy with the brightness
INT: of him and annul by the appearing

[end quoting from BibleHub]





However, the Greek word used in 1Thess5:3 is "G3639 - olethros - destruction" (used also in 1Tim6:9, see below):

[quoting from BibleHub]

1 Timothy 6:9 N-AMS
GRK: ἀνθρώπους εἰς ὄλεθρον καὶ ἀπώλειαν
NAS: plunge men into ruin and destruction.
KJV: men in destruction and perdition.
INT: men into ruin and destruction

[and]

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

[end quoting from BibleHub]




Note: "ruination" can unfold over time... it doesn't necessarily mean struck dead that instant (same as in 1Tim6:9... which verse distinguishes between "ruin [G3939]" and the other Greek word used in that verse "[G684] apōleian / apóleia - destruction / perdition").



Bear in mind that 1Th5:3 (with its referring to the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time period) ALSO speaks of it as being "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman with child... and Jesus spoke of that very thing, when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which PRECEDE and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (IOW, they do not COMMENCE at the moment of His RETURN to the earth Rev19, but instead commence some time PRIOR to that point).



The INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" Paul is referencing in 1Th5:3 (which KICKS OFF "the day of the Lord" time period) is the SAME thing Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 -- "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"

Do you have some kind of point you are trying to make that supposedly supports pre-trib. I don't see how your definitions and glosses do that.

What does your birth pang point have to do with the point the other poster made about the lawless one being destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What does your birth pang point have to do with the point the other poster made about the lawless one being destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming?

My question to him directly had to do with whether or not be views BOTH ITEMS he bolded in that sentence as occurring at the same time-slot, or not at the same time-slot... and IF NOT, what text provides him with the evidence that v.8a is separated by TIME before v.8b takes place. That was my question to him (for starters).

Perhaps he is the poster I recall saying v.8a occurs WHEN v.8b takes place--I cannot recall which poster believes that, so I'm asking him.




____________

As far as the wording in 1Th5:3 goes, it is speaking of the time-slot of the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord"--an earthly time period--NOT of the arrival of Jesus Himself.

Where the text states, in v.3, "and they shall not escape / [actively-]FLEE-OUT-OF"... this is in CONTRAST to those who WILL [be granted strength, by means of their obeying the instruction, per Lk21:36, to "watch and pray always SO THAT"] be able to "[actively-]FLEE-OUT-OF [same Greek word] each and every thing coming to pass and to stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man." [His Second Coming to the earth designation--to-judge-and-to-reign (earthly MK age); ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of" speaks of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the commencement of the earthly MK age];

IOW, Lk21:36 is NOT a "rapture [IN THE AIR]" verse...

...Rather, it speaks to the same time-period that 1Th5:3 is speaking about ("the day of the Lord" earthly-located time-period, first aspect ["IN THE NIGHT"], aka what we call "the 7-yr Tribulation Period, or the "70th Week" of Daniel, or the time of Jacob's Trouble... the "IN HIS TIME" of the man of sin, 2Th2:6,8a,9a "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" re: the man of sin... and the "ye have heard [<--commonly said to refer to OT scriptures] that antichrist IS COMING"... same guy);

1Th5:3's "and THEY shall NOT [actively-]FLEE-OUT-OF" is contrasted with those who WILL "[actively-]FLEE-OUT-OF" (the events occurring in the Tribulation period); neither of these are speaking of us / the Church which is His body (who will not be IN / experiencing / present on the earth DURING that time-period).




Let me ask you this... if you agree with us that 2Th2:1 refers to "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" as what occurs at the time of our "rapture," do you see any words / phrases in the verses following verse 1 that also speak specifically OF IT?? Can you point to another word or phrase FOLLOWING v.1 that speaks to this / this item, specifically? (meaning, our "rapture"... even using a different term or phrase... ?)

 

[cv5]

What point are you trying to make? No one is arguing for a rapture of mortal bodies. Paul tells of believers bodies being transformed. Read I Corinthians 15. The question is when that happens. The rapture happens AFTER the dead in Christ rise. And the 'first resurrection' happens toward the END of the book of Revelation, after we read about the King of Kings and Lord of Lords on appearing.

The Bible does not teach us that the church is resurrected before the first resurrection. That doesn't even make sense.

The Bible does not teach us that Jesus comes back before the second coming. It does teach that the rapture happens at the Lord's coming.



The Bible does not teach your theory. It teaches that the dead in Christ rise first and that they that are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord at the air, and sets the first resurrection right before the thousand years at the last chapters of the book of Revelation.



The Bible does not add an extra return of Christ or say anything about a pretrib rapture event. Read Matthew 24. After the tribulation, then the coming of the Son of man and the gathering of the elect. No man knows the day of the hour of the coming of the Son of Man... which happens after the tribulation. Read Matthew 24. As the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. The coming of the Son of Man is after the tribulation. At the coming of the Son of Man one shall be taken and the other left. And the coming of the Son of man is after the tribulation.

Stop reading pre-trib theories and read the Bible. Pre-trib does not fit.

Feeling frustrated are we? Disarmed? Vulnerable? Perfectly understandable bro. Perfectly understandable. I hate to add insult to injury......but here you go. Game, set, match!

The BIBLICAL FACT is that this RAPTURE TRANSFORMATION from still living believers TO GLORIFIED BODIES occurs only ONE TIME to ONE GROUP: The Church at the pre-trib rapture. This transformation to the heavenly abode illustrated in Rev 4 & 5 as the 24 Elders.

1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (G236).

The KJV translates Strong's G236 in the following manner: change (6x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to change, to exchange one thing for another, to transform

2Co 5:2
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon G1902 with our house G3613 which is from heaven:

The KJV translates Strong's G1902 in the following manner: be clothed upon (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to put on over

The KJV translates Strong's G3613 in the following manner: house (1x), habitation (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a dwelling place, habitation
   1. of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit

 

[presidente]

Cv5 that is rather childish. You show no evidence for the position you argue for then boast and talk smack, kind of like a knight with no arms and legs in a Mony Python movie.

The Bible says nothing about a pretribulational rapture. The rapture comes right after the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the coming of the Lord.

Look at tge end of the book of Revelation-- the Rider on the white horse...King of kings and Lord of lords. The the FIRST RESURRECTION. The rapture happens riggt after the resurrection of the dead in Christ not 7 years before it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The rapture comes right after the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the coming of the Lord.

Really? So do you think you really understand "the coming of the Lord"?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

"Ten thousands" is the biblical equivalent of "millions". So how does the Lord come with millions of His saints when -- according to you -- they have not even been raptured, let alone placed in Heaven? Can any Christian in his right mind imagine one of the most bizarre scenarios that could ever occur? Fiery judgment raining down from Heaven while the poor saints try to dodge those missiles on their way to meet Christ?

 

[presidente]

Really? So do you think you really understand "the coming of the Lord"?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

"Ten thousands" is the biblical equivalent of "millions". So how does the Lord come with millions of His saints when -- according to you -- they have not even been raptured, let alone placed in Heaven? Can any Christian in his right mind imagine one of the most bizarre scenarios that could ever occur? Fiery judgment raining down from Heaven while the poor saints try to dodge those missiles on their way to meet Christ?

I think we understand the Enoch passage tge same way in regards to the saints.

In order for the saints to come down they must first go up.

But as a pretribber you have this idea that they must stay up for 7 years. But there is no scripture to back this up. If there were a scripture that says Jesus comes back twice and raptures the church on the first trip, wouldn't you have quoted it already?

 

[cv5]

Cv5 that is rather childish. You show no evidence for the position you argue for then boast and talk smack, kind of like a knight with no arms and legs in a Mony Python movie.

The Bible says nothing about a pretribulational rapture. The rapture comes right after the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the coming of the Lord.

Look at tge end of the book of Revelation-- the Rider on the white horse...King of kings and Lord of lords. The the FIRST RESURRECTION. The rapture happens riggt after the resurrection of the dead in Christ not 7 years before it.

Come into the light bro....the light of the truth of the pre-trib rapture. Our blessed hope.

One group one time. The Church at the pre-trib rapture!

1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But as a pretribber you have this idea that they must stay up for 7 years. But there is no scripture to back this up. If there were a scripture that says Jesus comes back twice and raptures the church on the first trip, wouldn't you have quoted it already?

You need to start learning how to connect the dots from Genesis to Revelation. And Jesus does NOT come back to earth twice either. That is another misconception.

 

[cv5]

But as a pretribber you have this idea that they must stay up for 7 years.

You can count right bro? So how many years from Revelation 5 (Church saints raptured TO heaven) to Revelation 19 (Church saints coming WITH Jesus FROM heaven at the SC)?

7 years buddy.

I am not going to elaborate further, as these particulars have already been presented to you DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS of times already.

 

[presidente]

One group one time. The Church at the pre-trib rapture!

1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You might as well say, "Look at the evidence that we are all commanded to eat chocolate." and then quote the same veres.

There is absolutely nothing in these verses about the rapture being pretrib.

Verse 15, which you quote, tells us when this happens.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Notice this happens at the COMING of the Lord, not seven years before His coming. The lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. It does not say seven years after His coming.

I've asked you for years to show me where the Bible teaches that Jesus comes back or that the rapture happens seven years before the coming of the Lord. You haven't done that. If the Bible teaches that, that should be a really simple thing for you to do.

Quoting scripture that does not support your theory and pretending it does is not evidence for your theory.

 

[presidente]

You need to start learning how to connect the dots from Genesis to Revelation. And Jesus does NOT come back to earth twice either. That is another misconception.

That's a much easier post for you to make than it would be to present some Biblical evidence for your pre-trib position.

It is hard to present evidence when none exists.

 

[presidente]

You can count right bro? So how many years from Revelation 5 (Church saints raptured TO heaven) to Revelation 19 (Church saints coming WITH Jesus FROM heaven at the SC)?

If the church were raptured in Revelation 5, you might have a case. But the saints are still on the earth after that, and their souls are in heaven as they are martyred, crying out.

You just quoted scripture that shows the rapture at the COMING of the Lord. Now you want to try to read it into Revelation 5.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Right, the exact opposite of:

--"one shall be taken [taken away in judgment, just as in Noah's day] the other left [left (not "taken")--left on the earth, just as in Noah's day--in mortal bodies capable of reproducing / bearing children; "[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth" Dan2:35c / Gen9:1 and Matt24:37-51 parallel Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 / Lk17:26-37<--note: these are not "rapture / caught up / snatched / harpagēsometha [G726]" passages (nor related in any way, to that--and in fact, the parallel Lk12:36 states clearly, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding...")]

--as well as being opposite of "collect ye FIRST the TARES"

(both passages / contexts ^ of which take place at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19);




...and that's beside the fact that Matt24:29-31 connects back with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 regarding the elect of Israel, just like the Dan9:24 [/ Rom11:26-27,15] prophecy pertains to