Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[Bob-Carabbio]

All that sounds reasonable. But we aren't talking about believing prophecy. We are talking about the pretrib rapture theory, which does not have scripture to back it up.

Chuckle!!! Pre-Tribbers would disagree, but HEY!!! One skilled in the art of "Generating Theology" can easily demonstrate scripture that DOES "back up" their paradigms to their satisfaction. I'm a "Knee jerk Pre-tribber" personally.

[quote} Could you go ahead and post the scripture that says that Christ returns and raptures/gathers the church before the tribulation?[/quote]

Without going to the bother (since I couldn't care less - it'll happen according to plan regardless of our theology), I'll just refer you to the Assembly of God Denomination's "Pre" argument for it: https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/The-Rapture-of-the-Church.

 

[Evmur]

President Trump did win the election. A false president was installed afterwards.

Well I agree, but that particular prophet was of a bunch who said God would overturn the election.

 

[Evmur]

Quote or link the video where he said that. (Re: the Indian Sadhu with a beard in the orang outfit whose name begins with S.)

I checked some of out this man's video os a few times over the years. He tals about visits to heaven, working on some kind of heavenly council, visions of Jesus, many sensational things..

I heard a clip of his about the past election before it happened and he said if Trump did not win things would go badly for America...something along those lines. I remember listening to see if he predicted a Trump win. He might have predicted Trump would win before the election with Hillary Clinton.

In this video He tells the audience that Jesus spoke to him and corrected his pretrib rapture theology.

I wonder why someone would need to have a vision of Jesus Christ to realize the book of Revelation does not mention a pretribulational rapture.

Dear me, that is not Sadhu Sundar Singh who was indeed a holy man of God and a prophet.

 

[presidente]

Chuckle!!! Pre-Tribbers would disagree, but HEY!!! One skilled in the art of "Generating Theology" can easily demonstrate scripture that DOES "back up" their paradigms to their satisfaction. I'm a "Knee jerk Pre-tribber" personally.

[quote} Could you go ahead and post the scripture that says that Christ returns and raptures/gathers the church before the tribulation?

Without going to the bother (since I couldn't care less - it'll happen according to plan regardless of our theology), I'll just refer you to the Assembly of God Denomination's "Pre" argument for it: https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/The-Rapture-of-the-Church.[/QUOTE]
It starts off good, kind of pist trib. But the argument from silence to refer to multiple seco d coming events is unjustified.

The paper also used a passage clearly set in the 'post trib' time period from Matthew as part of their pretrib argument. It makes no sense.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Without going to the bother (since I couldn't care less - it'll happen according to plan regardless of our theology), I'll just refer you to the Assembly of God Denomination's "Pre" argument for it: https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/The-Rapture-of-the-Church.

It starts off good, kind of pist trib. But the argument from silence to refer to multiple seco d coming events is unjustified.

The paper also used a passage clearly set in the 'post trib' time period from Matthew as part of their pretrib argument. It makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

It makes sense to them, and doesn't matter anyway. It's just "theology" after all.

 

[cv5]

Isa 13:14
And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

13:6 thru 13:16 all speaking to the DOTL.

Obscure? Yes. But interesting.

 

[cv5]

It starts off good, kind of pist trib. But the argument from silence to refer to multiple seco d coming events is unjustified.

The paper also used a passage clearly set in the 'post trib' time period from Matthew as part of their pretrib argument. It makes no sense.

It makes sense to them, and doesn't matter anyway. It's just "theology" after all.[/QUOTE]
I think that you meant "eschatology".

As far as the Church is concerned, eschatology terminates with the promise of John 14:2-3 and the realization seen in the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5. There is no 70th week of Daniel events spoken to in John, the gospel written to the Church.

BTW no bible verse ANYWHERE indicates that the Church is appointed to eschatological wrath. On the contrary we are promised rest.

2Th 1:6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Joyful anticipation bro. Joyful anticipation.

Completely agree.

Waiting for our blessed Hope.

Yep.

"Eagerly waiting [G553]" as in the following verse:

Philippians 3:20-21 -

20 For our citizenship exists in the heavens, from whence also we are awaiting [G553 - eagerly waiting] a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our body of humiliation, conformed to the body of His glory, according to the working enabling Him even to subdue all things to Himself.

G553 - https://biblehub.com/greek/553.htm

[in contrast with the previous verse... about those "minding earthly things" (v.19)... which I believe refers to Israel's "earthly things" i.e. things belonging to Israel's promised and prophesied things]

That which Paul preaches about over and over again.

Agreed.

Paul was tasked with disclosing doctrine pertaining specifically TO / FOR / ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved / having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"... See Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]), one of which is the doctrine of "rapture / snatch / caught up / harpagēsometha / harpazo [G726]"--which was not promised to OT saints nor to Trib saints, thus does not pertain to them at all ("Rapture [IN THE AIR]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods)

 

[cv5]

Completely agree.




Yep.

"Eagerly waiting [G553]" as in the following verse:

Philippians 3:20-21 -

20 For our citizenship exists in the heavens, from whence also we are awaiting [G553 - eagerly waiting] a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our body of humiliation, conformed to the body of His glory, according to the working enabling Him even to subdue all things to Himself.

G553 - https://biblehub.com/greek/553.htm

[in contrast with the previous verse... about those "minding earthly things" (v.19)... which I believe refers to Israel's "earthly things" i.e. things belonging to Israel's promised and prophesied things]





Agreed.

Paul was tasked with disclosing doctrine pertaining specifically TO / FOR / ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved / having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"... See Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]), one of which is the doctrine of "rapture / snatch / caught up / harpagēsometha / harpazo [G726]"--which was not promised to OT saints nor to Trib saints, thus does not pertain to them at all ("Rapture [IN THE AIR]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods)

Romans 8:19 V-PIM/P-3S
GRK: τοῦ θεοῦ ἀπεκδέχεται
NAS: of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing
KJV: of the creature waiteth for the manifestation
INT: of God awaits

Romans 8:23 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: στενάζομεν υἱοθεσίαν ἀπεκδεχόμενοι τὴν ἀπολύτρωσιν
NAS: ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons,
KJV: ourselves, waiting for the adoption,
INT: groan adoption awaiting the redemption

Romans 8:25 V-PIM/P-1P
GRK: δι' ὑπομονῆς ἀπεκδεχόμεθα
NAS: with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
KJV: with patience wait for [it].
INT: in patience we await

1 Corinthians 1:7 V-PPM/P-AMP
GRK: μηδενὶ χαρίσματι ἀπεκδεχομένους τὴν ἀποκάλυψιν
NAS: gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation
KJV: no gift; waiting for the coming of our
INT: not one gift awaiting the revelation

Galatians 5:5 V-PIM/P-1P
GRK: ἐλπίδα δικαιοσύνης ἀπεκδεχόμεθα
NAS: by faith, are waiting for the hope
KJV: through the Spirit wait for the hope
INT: [the] hope of righteousness await

Philippians 3:20 V-PIM/P-1P
GRK: καὶ σωτῆρα ἀπεκδεχόμεθα κύριον Ἰησοῦν
NAS: also we eagerly wait for a Savior,
KJV: also we look for the Saviour,
INT: also [as] Savior we are awaiting [the] Lord Jesus

Hebrews 9:28 V-PPM/P-DMP
GRK: τοῖς αὐτὸν ἀπεκδεχομένοις εἰς σωτηρίαν
NAS: to those who eagerly await Him.
KJV: of many; and unto them that look for him
INT: to those that him await for salvation

 

[oyster67]

To confuse the Heavenly Marriage of the Church Bride with the post-tribulation Earthly Feast of the Birds is another unfortunate error of post-trib.

Post-trib never has any of the still-living going up to heaven for anything, yet the scriptures verify that those of the Church still alive will be taken up to Heaven and later come back down.

John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jude 1:
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

We come back down to execute judgement, not attend a wedding.

 

[cv5]

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, "???when??? (G1722)" the
Lord Jesus "shall be revealed (G602)" from heaven with his mighty angels,

G1722 "en" variants:
in (1902x), by (163x), among (117x)

G602 "apokalypsis"
NOUN revelation

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

It makes sense to them, and doesn't matter anyway. It's just "theology" after all.
I think that you meant "eschatology

"Eschatology" is nothing but another specific branch of the fine and applied art of "Theology".

Bottom line: regardless of man's "Theology", things will wrap up in the end according to God's PLAN, and His Schedule, and we'll have a good laugh about what our "theology" said had to happen.

 

[cv5]

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, "???when??? (G1722)" the
Lord Jesus "shall be revealed (G602)" from heaven with his mighty angels,

G602 "apokalypsis"
NOUN revelation

G602 - apokalypsis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Transliteration
apokalypsis (Key)
Pronunciation
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis

Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἀποκαλύπτω (G601)
Greek Inflections of ἀποκάλυψις [?]
mGNT
18x in 6 unique form(s) TR
18x in 6 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
ἀποκαλύψει — 5x
ἀποκαλύψεις — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεων — 1x
ἀποκαλύψεως — 3x
ἀποκάλυψιν — 7x
Ἀποκάλυψις — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 3:563,405
Trench's Synonyms: xciv. ἀποκάλυψις, ἐπιφάνεια, φανέρωσις.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 18x
The KJV translates Strong's G602 in the following manner: revelation (12x), be revealed (2x), to lighten (with G1519) (1x), manifestation (1x), coming (1x), appearing (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. laying bare, making naked
2. a disclosure of truth, instruction
   1. concerning things before unknown
   2. used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
3. manifestation, appearance

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis, ap-ok-al'-oop-sis; from G601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ regarding that "G602" word ^ ... when it is used with no "definite article ['the']" [and re: Jesus] it refers to in the here and now (at the time written); whereas when it is used WITH the definite article [and re: Jesus, like in 2Th1 "in THE revelation of"], it is referring to an eschatological happening (but I do not think it necessarily means that "every eye" [literal eyeball] shall SEE Him... where it says "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that..." which I believe is describing the "Trib" yrs, as I've said in past posts--esp. in view of the fact that wherever Scripture uses "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" in the SAME contexts, they are referring to the SAME "TIME PERIOD")...



...anyway... for example, the following verse (with G602 used WITHOUT the definite article ['the']), it is speaking of in the here and now (at the time written), with its saying:

"Therefore having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober-minded, set your hope fully upon the grace being brought [present participle] to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ,"... this is speaking of, in the here and now (at the time written).
--1 Peter 1:13

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ meant to supply this link to that 1 Peter 1:13 verse (showing no "definite article" in the Grk before the G602 word, in this verse):

https://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/1-13.htm




... whereas the definite article IS used with G602 in other verses (such as the 2Th1 verse, under present discussion)

 

[cv5]

^ meant to supply this link to that 1 Peter 1:13 verse (showing no "definite article" in the Grk before the G602 word, in this verse):

https://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/1-13.htm




... whereas the definite article IS used with G602 in other verses (such as the 2Th1 verse, under present discussion)

Thanks bro....

1722 [e]
en ἐν at

3588 [e]
tē τῇ the

602 [e]
apokalypsei
ἀποκαλύψει
revelation

 

[presidente]

To confuse the Heavenly Marriage of the Church Bride with the post-tribulation Earthly Feast of the Birds is another unfortunate error of post-trib.

The Bible doesn't say the marriage feast occurs in heaven. This is a common method for pre-tribbers. Assume some pre-trib point-- for example Jesus coming back twice or that the marriage supper is in heaven, and then say, "This verse is talking about the coming of Jesus before the tribulation because the rapture hasn't happened yet at this point" or "This passage is talking about the marriage supper in heaven." It's like circular reasoning.

Post-trib never has any of the still-living going up to heaven for anything, yet the scriptures verify that those of the Church still alive will be taken up to Heaven and later come back down.

John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Is this your best evidence for pre-trib? The Bible talks about the New Jerusalem descending from heaven like a bride adorned for her husband.

The version of pre-trib I was taught had the 'elements shall melt by fervent heat' happening between the end of the thousand years and the New Jerusalem descending. Our teacher in Sunday school might even have speculated that the church was in heaven at this time.

There is also the possibility that we should consider that the bride that John was shown IS the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven. This is set AFTER THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN, and not at the rapture. If you don't accept that, and the New Jerusalem has the rooms/mansions that were prepared, the saints abide with the Lamb on the new earth. So from that perspective, the saints and the Lord are at the same prepared place.

There is also the idea that the spirits of the disembodied dead go to be with the Lord. Many Christians believe they go to heaven when they die. Don't you?

So there is no 'problem' here that would necessitate inventing an extra return of Christ that the church nowhere teaches. There is no need to add an additional resurrection of the dead before 'the first resurrection'.

What is actually written in the Bible provides a solution without having to add an extra return of Christ.

Jesus taught his own disciples to watch for the coming of the Son of man, which He described as happening 'after the tribulation of those days.' Earlier in the passage, he described the tribulation as 'great tribulation.'

Jude 1:
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Again, two solutions from within scripture themselves.

1. Christ returns with the angels.
2. The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air before their return with him.

I think we agree on both points. The difference is pretribbers add a seven year trip to heaven in point two, but without any scripture to back it up.

We come back down to execute judgement, not attend a wedding.

Where does the Bible teach that both cannot can occur?

 

[oyster67]

The Bible doesn't say the marriage feast occurs in heaven.

Does. The Bridegroom has prepared a place in His father's house and after the Marriage will bring His Bride back down at His Second Coming. These things are a given. The Scripture's support this and everyone knows it. If you want to stay down here for the Tribulation and soak up God's wrath, just let Him know.

 

[presidente]

Does. The Bridegroom has prepared a place in His father's house and after the Marriage will bring His Bride back down at His Second Coming. These things are a given. The Scripture's support this and everyone knows it.

This is rhe essence of pretrib. Just accept pretrib as fact. Instead of showing scripture to support these outlandish ideas, just say scripture supports it and everyone knows it.

The problem is there are not scriptures to support these ideas. If there are, why don't you quote them? Why hasn't anyone done so on these forums over the years?

And there was probably only one person on earth who believed this about 200 (or 196 or whatever) years ago when Darby developed his ideas.

The problems with pretrib are the lack of Biblical evidence for it and the Biblical evidence against it. Why would Jesus warn His disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation if they would be raptured before the tribulation?

If you want to stay down here for the Tribulation and soak up God's wrath, just let Him know.

The timing of the rapture is not set by our desires. The Father has set times in His own power.

Why would you think that God is angry with the saints during the tribulation?

 

[oyster67]

There is also the possibility that we should consider that the bride that John was shown IS the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven. This is set AFTER THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN, and not at the rapture.

That is a fact. The New Jerusalem is referred to as the Bride... 1000 years after the timeframe we have been discussing.