Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

[Nehemiah6]

It actually says the Spirit quickens them...or makes them alive because they were dead. This is the argument made in Ephesians 2 that leads up to the salvation spoken of later in the chapter.

But not before they are saved by grace through faith. And that is found in Ephesians 1:12-14:

That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, [Who] is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So what does this passage teach us?

1. The Gospel is called "the Word of Truth" (as in James 1:18 also). In other passages it is called "the Word of God" and "the power of God unto salvation".

2. When the Gospel is preached faith in Christ is generated by the power of the Gospel working in conjunction with the power of the Holy Spirit to convince and to convict. Thus "AFTER ye heard the Word of Truth".

3. We know that those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This is the same as saying that Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost. This of course in not mentioned above.

4. "AFTER ye beleved ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit" tells us that following the gift of the Holy Spirit, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- does many things in the believers heart, soul, and spirit. The "sealing" of the Holy Spirit includes (a) regeneration, (b) the indwelling of the Spirit, (c) the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, as well as many other supernatural things.

So according to the true Gospel it is only AFTER repentance and faith in Christ that a sinner receives the Holy Spirit. But according to Reformed Theology the Holy Spirit is given to the so-called elect BEFORE they are saved. And here is the evidence from the Westminster Confession which speaks of "effectual calling": 2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

People need to see that this turns the Gospel on its head, and puts the cart before the horse.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Perhaps you can ask God that.

Don't have to.

God certainly knew Adam was going to disobey...

Sure - no problem "Omniscience" works that way. So - how did Adam's nature "change" since with his "perfect" nature, he disobeyed??? Seems like Adam followed James 1:14 to the letter.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The assumptions you made are not corroborated by Scripture. That's why they are assumptions.

Then you are using a different Bible than I do and I use the most authentic Greek we have on record.

 

[Runningman]

It's the Bible that informs my views - not opinions of men.


If you accept the definition below as describing total depravity accurately please show where it is unscriptural.
https://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html
Extract:
“The result of the fall is total depravity or corruption. By this is meant that every part of man is rendered corrupt. The Canons say that man "became involved in blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, perverseness of judgment; became wicked, rebellious, obdurate in heart and will and impure in his affection." There was no part of his nature that was not affected by sin. The word "total" must not be taken in the absolute sense as though man is completely depraved. Man is not as bad as he can be. Article 4, which we hope to consider more fully later in this series, speaks of "glimmerings of natural light which remain in man since the fall." God does restrain the working of sin in the life of man on earth. And sinful man still has a sense of right and wrong. His corruption is total in the sense that there is no part of his being that is pure and holy; and the good he does is done for God and for His glory.”

The premise of the text you quoted me hinges on there being no examples of people without the Holy Spirit doing anything pure and holy. The Bible says otherwise.

Jesus says that those who are evil know how to give good things just like the pure, holy, righteous Father in heaven:

Matthew 7
11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

And what else? These evil people are doing good things apart from the Holy Spirit who produces a fruit called goodness:

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

And this doesn’t stop here. We can even find more examples of these people who allegedly have no part of their being that is pure and holy doing pure and holy things.

So let’s punt it back to you. Where does the Bible prove that that source you quoted is true?

 

[Magenta]

Sure - no problem "Omniscience" works that way. So - how did Adam's nature "change" since
with his "perfect" nature, he disobeyed??? Seems like Adam followed James 1:14 to the letter.

What perfect nature was that? God saw His creation as good at every step until after
Eve was created. Then He proclaimed it very good. We are perfected in Christ alone.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.

The verse I thought of was 1 John 2:16 ~

For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the
eyes, and the pride of life—is not from the Father but from the world.

1 Corinthians 15:46 ~ The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.

 

[Magenta]

Then you are using a different Bible than I do and I use the most authentic Greek we have on record.

People are so stupid using UNREGENERATE man when the Thief on the Cross was as unsaved, unregenerated, sinful as they come and he still was able to recognize Yeshua.

Where does the Bible say the thief on the cross was any of those things?

Chapter and verse please.

He never heard the Gospel

Chapter and verse please.

nor had any experience dealing with Christ

Chapter and verse please.

 

[Papermonkey]

Because we know in John Chapter 8 Jesus tells us He is I AM.

We know I AM is introduced in Exodus Chapter 3 with the Burning Bush where the LORD tells Moses He is Elohim and later a few Verses later "I AM."

Then in Chapter 6 He tells Moses His real name is YHWH.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, forever.
Yet in his NT ministry he often contradicted what YHWH ordained in the OT.
Eye for an eye, as example.

Matthew 5:43-45
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.''

And other verses.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Where does the Bible say the thief on the cross was any of those things?

Chapter and verse please.


Chapter and verse please.


Chapter and verse please.

I was using how you and others have been explaining/defining Sinners. Good to know you don't actually believe what you preach.

 

[Cameron143]

The men going to Emmaus knew

But not before they are saved by grace through faith. And that is found in Ephesians 1:12-14:

That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, [Who] is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So what does this passage teach us?

1. The Gospel is called "the Word of Truth" (as in James 1:18 also). In other passages it is called "the Word of God" and "the power of God unto salvation".

2. When the Gospel is preached faith in Christ is generated by the power of the Gospel working in conjunction with the power of the Holy Spirit to convince and to convict. Thus "AFTER ye heard the Word of Truth".

3. We know that those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This is the same as saying that Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost. This of course in not mentioned above.

4. "AFTER ye beleved ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit" tells us that following the gift of the Holy Spirit, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- does many things in the believers heart, soul, and spirit. The "sealing" of the Holy Spirit includes (a) regeneration, (b) the indwelling of the Spirit, (c) the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, as well as many other supernatural things.

So according to the true Gospel it is only AFTER repentance and faith in Christ that a sinner receives the Holy Spirit. But according to Reformed Theology the Holy Spirit is given to the so-called elect BEFORE they are saved. And here is the evidence from the Westminster Confession which speaks of "effectual calling": 2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

People need to see that this turns the Gospel on its head, and puts the cart before the horse.

Sealing is different than quickening. You seem to equate the two.

But not before they are saved by grace through faith. And that is found in Ephesians 1:12-14:

That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, [Who] is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So what does this passage teach us?

1. The Gospel is called "the Word of Truth" (as in James 1:18 also). In other passages it is called "the Word of God" and "the power of God unto salvation".

2. When the Gospel is preached faith in Christ is generated by the power of the Gospel working in conjunction with the power of the Holy Spirit to convince and to convict. Thus "AFTER ye heard the Word of Truth".

3. We know that those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This is the same as saying that Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost. This of course in not mentioned above.

4. "AFTER ye beleved ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit" tells us that following the gift of the Holy Spirit, He -- God the Holy Spirit -- does many things in the believers heart, soul, and spirit. The "sealing" of the Holy Spirit includes (a) regeneration, (b) the indwelling of the Spirit, (c) the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, as well as many other supernatural things.

So according to the true Gospel it is only AFTER repentance and faith in Christ that a sinner receives the Holy Spirit. But according to Reformed Theology the Holy Spirit is given to the so-called elect BEFORE they are saved. And here is the evidence from the Westminster Confession which speaks of "effectual calling": 2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

People need to see that this turns the Gospel on its head, and puts the cart before the horse.

There is a difference between quickening and sealing. You don't seem to make a distinction.

 

[Magenta]

I was using how you and others have been explaining/defining Sinners. Good to know you don't actually believe what you preach.

I gave Scripture verses that corroborated what I was saying.

Good to know you don't believe the Bible and lie about what is in it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, forever.
Yet in his NT ministry he often contradicted what YHWH ordained in the OT.
Eye for an eye, as example.

Matthew 5:43-45
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.''

And other verses.

One Testament was ending and another was Beginning. Had they been similar there would be no need for a New Testament.

Plus, the first Testament didn't include God sacrificing Himself. That alone changed everything.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Good to know you don't believe the Bible and lie about what is in it.

So after many pages of you claiming Sinners are unregenerated or agreeing with those who do, are you telling me the Thief on the Cross was not?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I gave Scripture verses that corroborated what I was saying.

Good to know you don't believe the Bible and lie about what is in it.

Ok!

I used your words.

If you believe what you post then what's the issue with me using your own words?

 

[Papermonkey]

One Testament was ending and another was Beginning. Had they been similar there would be no need for a New Testament.

Plus, the first Testament didn't include God sacrificing Himself. That alone changed everything.

Numbers 23:19?

 

[Papermonkey]

I was using how you and others have been explaining/defining Sinners. Good to know you don't actually believe what you preach.

Can you answer her question ?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Can you answer her question ?

If she believes what she posts then it should relate to any sinner.

You are in no position to clarify what she posts, only she is.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Numbers 23:19?

Knowing there's an Old and a New Testament, how is God lying when each Covenant represent different ways God wants to connect to His Followers?

 

[WillB]

I already quoted the passage from Romans 2 to show that this definition is false. "There is none righteous, no not one" tells us that all human beings are sinners, since they inherited the sin nature from Adam. But that does not nullify the fact that unsaved people can still do good and still do righteous deeds. The example of the Gentile Roman centurion who did good deeds in Israel is a good example.

The problem with your 'argument' against depravity is this: you are looking at things from YOUR perspective. And your perspective as a fallen corrupt sinful man, just like me, is totally worthless.

Instead of projecting YOUR notions of what YOU consider to be 'good' and 'bad' you would be doing yourself - and everyone else you come into contact with - a great big service by diminishing your opinions and perspective and taking on board THE VIEWPOINT AND PERSPECTIVE OF GOD.

And by the way, I wasn't shouting and only using uppercase for emphasis.

 

[WillB]

The premise of the text you quoted me hinges on there being no examples of people without the Holy Spirit doing anything pure and holy. The Bible says otherwise.

Jesus says that those who are evil know how to give good things just like the pure, holy, righteous Father in heaven:

Matthew 7
11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

And what else? These evil people are doing good things apart from the Holy Spirit who produces a fruit called goodness:

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

And this doesn’t stop here. We can even find more examples of these people who allegedly have no part of their being that is pure and holy doing pure and holy things.

So let’s punt it back to you. Where does the Bible prove that that source you quoted is true?

You're making the same mistake as another forum member in that YOU are viewing the subject matter through the lens of a fallen corrupt man - just like me and the rest of us - instead of lowering yourself and TAKING ON BOARD THE PERSPECTIVE FROM GOD's VIEW.

This may help:
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/creation-freed-decay

And by the way, I wasn't shouting and used capitals for emphasis.

 

[Papermonkey]

If she believes what she posts then it should relate to any sinner.

You are in no position to clarify what she posts, only she is.

That would be a no.
Again.