Can a Christian lose salvation?

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Runningman

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#221
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Judas being chosen by Christ was one of those who the Father gave to Jesus. Judas had power to cast out devils and do miracles, but Judas was lost as part of prophecy fulfillment. Jesus said that while he was with his disciples he kept them safe, but that Judas was lost. I can only gather that Judas was no longer safe at some point and if he isn't safe by Jesus he probably lost his salvation.

John 6:39
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 17:12
12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#222
Sep 23, 2014
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#222
Cameron143 said:
How do you understand Hebrews 4:15-16?
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Hebrews4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Where Aaron could sympathize with our weaknesses, being weak and falling to it himself, "the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless (Hebrews7:18)," but we have a high priest Who is perfect by which we may approach God with confidence, for as the law made nothing perfect, a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God (ibid.).
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#223
Sep 23, 2014
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#223
Runningman said:
Judas being chosen by Christ was one of those who the Father gave to Jesus. Judas had power to cast out devils and do miracles, but Judas was lost as part of prophecy fulfillment. Jesus said that while he was with his disciples he kept them safe, but that Judas was lost. I can only gather that Judas was no longer safe at some point and if he isn't safe by Jesus he probably lost his salvation.

John 6:39
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 17:12
12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Click to expand...
Whenever referring to Judas, Jesus excluded him from "they," such as in saying, "yet one of you is a devil," so why should we always include him when Jesus says, "they have kept my Word"?
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#224
Apr 22, 2013
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#224
Runningman said:
I can agree with that. My point was that we don't technically have the gift of eternal life right now. There are things we must do in the meantime to make sure we get there and get that gift.
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Perhaps misworded, but this is an absolutely horrible post.

This is working for your salvation. Pure and simple.

And it nullifies the work of Jesus.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#225
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#225
PennEd said:
Perhaps misworded, but this is an absolutely horrible post.

This is working for your salvation. Pure and simple.

And it nullifies the work of Jesus.
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Nothing in the Bible says the work of Jesus has been nullified; that's your non-Biblical opinion, just so that's clear. However, the Bible does say we have an obligation to do something. An obligation is something that's required, it's not optional. Here is something Paul said.

Romans 8
4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#226
Apr 22, 2013
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#226
Runningman said:
Nothing in the Bible says the work of Jesus has been nullified; that's your non-Biblical opinion, just so that's clear. However, the Bible does say we have an obligation to do something. An obligation is something that's required, it's not optional. Here is something Paul said.

Romans 8
4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
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I didn’t say the Bible nullified ANYTHING. I said YOU did.
 
R

Runningman

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#227
Mar 4, 2020
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#227
PennEd said:
I didn’t say the Bible nullified ANYTHING. I said YOU did.
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I never said Jesus' work has been nullified. You believe something I said nullifies the work of Jesus and that isn't in the Bible. I'm only talking about what the Bible says here.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#228
Mar 4, 2020
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#228
Mem said:
Whenever referring to Judas, Jesus excluded him from "they," such as in saying, "yet one of you is a devil," so why should we always include him when Jesus says, "they have kept my Word"?
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Which verses exactly?

John 6
70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#229
Apr 22, 2013
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#229
Runningman said:
I never said Jesus' work has been nullified. You believe something I said nullifies the work of Jesus and that isn't in the Bible. I'm only talking about what the Bible says here.
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Dude, you don’t think Jesus is God. The idea you think you know what the Bible says is absurd.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#230
Mar 4, 2020
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#230
PennEd said:
Dude, you don’t think Jesus is God. The idea you think you know what the Bible says is absurd.
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You just said you believe something the Bible doesn't say "And it nullifies the work of Jesus."

Despite being shown that Romans 8 says we have an obligation to, by the Spirit, put to death the misdeeds of the body in order to live.

And it's absurd that I know what the Bible says? lol. You have an unusual sense of humor.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#231
Mar 1, 2022
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#231
Mem said:
Hebrews4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Where Aaron could sympathize with our weaknesses, being weak and falling to it himself, "the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless (Hebrews7:18)," but we have a high priest Who is perfect by which we may approach God with confidence, for as the law made nothing perfect, a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God (ibid.).
Click to expand...
How about the approach the throne of grace part?
 
Mem

Mem

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#232
Sep 23, 2014
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#232
Runningman said:
Which verses exactly?

John 6
70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
Click to expand...
the preceding v. 64
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#233
Sep 23, 2014
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#233
Mem said:
Hebrews4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Where Aaron could sympathize with our weaknesses, being weak and falling to it himself, "the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless (Hebrews7:18)," but we have a high priest Who is perfect by which we may approach God with confidence, for as the law made nothing perfect, a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God (ibid.).
Click to expand...
Cameron143 said:
How about the approach the throne of grace part?
Click to expand...
...so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
When would we need mercy and hope to find grace if not when we are weak and useless? but we have a high priest Who is perfect by which we may approach God with confidence, for as the law made nothing perfect, a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God...
a better hope (that is an assurance when it has to do with hoping in Jesus) of that which does make perfect, not for what we've done but what we have in our possession when we approach, our perfect High Priest's accomplished work.
 
R

Runningman

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Mem said:
the preceding v. 64
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)
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Okay I understand your question now. I don’t think we should necessarily exclude Judas from never having kept Jesus’ word. The story in the gospel develops over time and there are examples of the 12 apostles (Judas included of course) obeying Jesus which is keeping his word, at least temporarily.
 
Mem

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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#235
Runningman said:
Okay I understand your question now. I don’t think we should necessarily exclude Judas from never having kept Jesus’ word. The story in the gospel develops over time and there are examples of the 12 apostles (Judas included of course) obeying Jesus which is keeping his word, at least temporarily.
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That is one of the choices that we can only have "faith" to be true because scripture doesn't explicitly exclude Judas in taking part in the works, except that example and the most compelling case where Jesus Himself explicitly separated him. And likewise, we cannot rule out that Judas was permitted to just "hang out," and murmur and criticize the whole time (remember the definition of 'devil' is slanderer) until he fulfilled what was written in scripture.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#236
Mem said:
...so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
When would we need mercy and hope to find grace if not when we are weak and useless? but we have a high priest Who is perfect by which we may approach God with confidence, for as the law made nothing perfect, a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God...
a better hope (that is an assurance when it has to do with hoping in Jesus) of that which does make perfect, not for what we've done but what we have in our possession when we approach, our perfect High Priest's accomplished work.
Click to expand...
To me, the amazing part isn't that we can find mercy and grace, but that we may draw so nigh to God.
 
Mem

Mem

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#237
Sep 23, 2014
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#237
Cameron143 said:
To me, the amazing part isn't that we can find mercy and grace, but that we may draw so nigh to God.
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Amazing indeed, but this makes me think of the verse, "He cannot deny Himself."....
 
R

Runningman

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#239
Mar 4, 2020
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#239
Mem said:
That is one of the choices that we can only have "faith" to be true because scripture doesn't explicitly exclude Judas in taking part in the works, except that example and the most compelling case where Jesus Himself explicitly separated him. And likewise, we cannot rule out that Judas was permitted to just "hang out," and murmur and criticize the whole time (remember the definition of 'devil' is slanderer) until he fulfilled what was written in scripture.
Click to expand...
I don’t think I see where Jesus explicitly separated Judas aside from calling him a devil. I mean, he wasn’t called an unbeliever so I don’t think that Judas was of those who didn’t do the work that God requires which is to believe in Jesus.

There’s a lot of compelling proof Judas was a believer then lost his salvation.

Judas was a believer, but he was destined to destruction. The prophecy was unavoidable.
 
Mem

Mem

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#240
Sep 23, 2014
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#240
Runningman said:
I don’t think I see where Jesus explicitly separated Judas aside from calling him a devil. I mean, he wasn’t called an unbeliever so I don’t think that Judas was of those who didn’t do the work that God requires which is to believe in Jesus.

There’s a lot of compelling proof Judas was a believer then lost his salvation.

Judas was a believer, but he was destined to destruction. The prophecy was unavoidable.
Click to expand...
Romans 9:22
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?

That seems to say Jesus patiently put up with Judas.
 
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