Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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I see the Bible as a snapshot of something that happened, but it doesn’t include every bit of information. The Bible can almost put us in a box, and maybe that’s partially the point, but God isn’t in a box, so there’s that too.
There’s the matter of John the Baptist who, before he was born, was filled with the Holy Spirit and this was obviously pre-crucifixion. If John had it then it’s possible others had it before him, if God so desired it.
Luke 1
13But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
There’s the matter of John the Baptist who, before he was born, was filled with the Holy Spirit and this was obviously pre-crucifixion. If John had it then it’s possible others had it before him, if God so desired it.
Luke 1
13But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
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Ok. Whilst I completely disagree with you and that you have failed to see the highly significant difference between "God WILLS all to be saved" and your personal interpretation that WILLS means the same thing as wishes, hopes and desires - which it most emphatically does not - we'll leave it a that.
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My point is that Christ is God because He sits at the Father's right hand and is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit. The Father communicates His will and empowers Christ through His Holy Spirit. Christ existed before He became Jesus and is the creator of all things made because of the Father's Glory (Holy Spirit). Christ has His own mind and will but is obedient to the Father's will in heaven and on earth. Christ ( as the Father's right hand ) is the God who is active in the Old Testament. Both Christ and the Father are Spirits and have their own wills. Through them other spirits are created in the kingdom of heaven ( some with their own free will and some without). Sin is going against the Father's will and has consequences ( God's justice ). All humans have their own spirit and because all sin (except for Jesus), the consequence is death. The Father's justice demands that all humans be condemned but because of His mercy, He sends Christ (who is perfect) to become a man and die. Being perfect He was not supposed to die, but when He did, life is owed Him by the Father. Christ died for all mankind and wishes that all be saved, but the Father has to show His wrath for disobedience. If He saves all, there would not be justice in heaven and sin would run rampant. To demonstrate His mercy, He saves a few. Those that He saves are written in the book of life before the world began. Those chosen are those that put their trust in Christ's death for the remission of sins and are changed (born again) by the Holy Spirit (perfected) so that the motivation from love of self changes to love for God first and everyone else second. It is through the Holy Spirit of the Father and Son that directs the path of all believers. Salvation is a state of being, not just a mental acceptance of Christ.
Because of Christ's obedience to the point of death, the Father rewards Christ with His own kingdom in heaven with a scepter of righteousness and composed of those who are saved and make up Christ's spiritual body.
Because of Christ's obedience to the point of death, the Father rewards Christ with His own kingdom in heaven with a scepter of righteousness and composed of those who are saved and make up Christ's spiritual body.
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K
Agreed
Snag... Can I have verses for that plz. And a small question here, did satan have his own free will in heaven? Or did God create him to sin and fall.
Agreed again.
Another small question, was Jesus side fully human?
And we agree again.
There we go, we agree on several points when we break it all down.
If everyone is saved how would sin run rampant?
Actually the Jews are the chosen people. We were just grafted in. So I guess the Jews would be the ones He would save first and maybe fit in a gentile or two?
So how does God choose who He will save and who He will execute?
Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit leads sinners to Christ, I think that is what we are both saying here.
Snag... Can I have verses for that plz. And a small question here, did satan have his own free will in heaven? Or did God create him to sin and fall.
Agreed again.
Another small question, was Jesus side fully human?
And we agree again.
There we go, we agree on several points when we break it all down.
If everyone is saved how would sin run rampant?
Actually the Jews are the chosen people. We were just grafted in. So I guess the Jews would be the ones He would save first and maybe fit in a gentile or two?
So how does God choose who He will save and who He will execute?
Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit leads sinners to Christ, I think that is what we are both saying here.
How could Elizabeth be filled with the Holy Spirit if it was not in her? 
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This seems to hearken back to the word "endue" which you gave earlier...
It is certainly not a word you come across often, is it?
And it is an interesting conundrum, too, as to how the Holy Spirit comes upon someone
to inspire them, without being in them, or even in convicting the world of its sins...
endue definition: to invest or endow with some gift, quality, or faculty.
- to put on; assume: Hamlet endued the character of a madman.
- to clothe.
It is certainly not a word you come across often, is it?
And it is an interesting conundrum, too, as to how the Holy Spirit comes upon someone
to inspire them, without being in them, or even in convicting the world of its sins...
endue definition: to invest or endow with some gift, quality, or faculty.
- to put on; assume: Hamlet endued the character of a madman.
- to clothe.
No "conundrum" at all (unless you want to hang on to the Calvinist interpretation of "Total Depravity". They had to create their "Regeneration" fantasy as a "work around").
God HAS ALWAYS communicated with, motivated, and given power to people who, up to John 20:22 were only unregnerates.
God HAS ALWAYS communicated with, motivated, and given power to people who, up to John 20:22 were only unregnerates.
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Just a thought...in Job 42:5 Job relates that he had previously heard of God, but now he has seen Him. As I'm not inclined to believe he actually saw God, it might be that the expression is not used literally, but used as a means to express the immense difference in how he once experienced God and now does so in a significantly greater degree. It might be in like manner Jesus is speaking of the experience of the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost the experience of the pouring out of the Spirit represented a new and greater experience.
Another question that might be considered is whether someone in OT times needed to be born again and whether His indwelling is necessary for salvation?
Another question that might be considered is whether someone in OT times needed to be born again and whether His indwelling is necessary for salvation?
Since none are righteous and man is a slave to sin until such time as he is born again, or given a new heart as promised, that allows him/her to love God, I don't really understand all the hostility toward total depravity. Total depravity was affirmed by the Five articles of Remonstrance (Article 3 – Total depravity. This article affirms the total depravity of man, that man is unable to do the will of God, and cannot save himself, apart from the grace of God) by Jacobus Arminius himself, and by John Wesley, who strongly identified with Arminius through publication of his periodical The Arminian, and also advocated a strong doctrine of inability. Theologians have never considered humans to be totally unable to do good outwardly as a result of the fall. Still, there are none good but God. Jesus said so
The conundrum mentioned has to do with the Holy Spirit working upon a person without being in the person. That is all I meant by that.
The conundrum mentioned has to do with the Holy Spirit working upon a person without being in the person. That is all I meant by that.
The Calvinist idea of total depravity is that an individual cannot even respond to the Gospel. Therefore according to their bizarre theology, God chooses some (the so-called elect) for salvation, then gives them the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they repent and are converted, and then as a result they believe and are saved. Here is how it is expressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith: "...man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it." Actually repentance is not even mentioned here which in itself makes this idea suspect. Thus total depravity totally contradicts Gospel truth and puts the cart before the horse. Also, Total Depravity totally ignores the existence of the human conscience, and that in fact the unsaved can do many good works.
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No "Conundrum" at all except the one created by "Man's Theology". God CAN, and DOES speak to, and motivate anybody He wants, any time he wants, in whatever WAY he wants. Whether His Holy Spirit in IN the person or not isn't important. The function of the Holy Spirit IN a person is given in Romans 8:28,29 - i.e. to CHANGE THE PERSON and bring them into the IMAGE OF JESUS.
The Disciples didn't have the Holy Spirit IN them (yet), but were out doing miracles in God's power as Jesus commissioned them.
The Disciples didn't have the Holy Spirit IN them (yet), but were out doing miracles in God's power as Jesus commissioned them.
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