Divorce...

[kaylagrl]

Heh. "Well that was a boy, I'm a man and men don't act like that." Sounds like something I'd say. When the kids at work are acting like fools and people are getting upset with them, I shrug and say they'll grow up one day. Probably.

In the meantime this thread reminds me of an old saying: "Love is like a fart. If you have to push it, it's probably a turd."

Rofl, now that's a new one, gonna have to work that into the rotation somehow. And I will credit you for sure.
Well, you and my hubby sound like you have similar personalities. He's easy going, comfortable in who he is without being arrogant and doesn't play mind games. You can take him at his word, and his handshake is his word. It's getting harder and harder to find these type of men anymore, or maybe they are just hanging out on tree limbs and we're looking in the wrong places.

 

[Dude653]

It seems I recall the Bible says infidelity is grounds for divorce. So that means if the husband is abusive, he is violating the wedding vows and that should be considered infidelity also

 

[mustaphadrink]

To all those who comment on this topic let me remind you, it is not wise to counsel without understanding.
As stated previously, false divorce and remarriage doctrines cause much harm, perhaps more than any other (non-salvific) false doctrines.
Tread lightly, your counsel could contribute to needless suffering for the bride of Christ.
Flippant answers like the one above by @mustaphadrink show a lack of understanding scripture and carelessness with the bride. If we don’t have a cohesive understanding of certain doctrines let us answer carefully, perhaps with a caveat, or not answer at all.

Scripture is never flippant.

 

[mustaphadrink]

I agree with all those points.

I was being facetious about the headache. (But I really did go off and take a nap... On a couch though, not in a tree. But a couch doesn't fit the Lynx persona.)

I can phrase it in a serious, non-facetious manner, but it will take a lot more space. (Yes I CAN do serious when I want to. I just don't usually want to.)

Here goes:

All this argument and crap about divorce should serve as a lesson to us single people to be content. Being married opens a whole can of worms and leaves you open to heartbreak, divorce, drama and... basically a lot of stuff that ruins your digestion and keeps you from sleeping at night.

Watching the game from the sidelines, I've seen a lot come and I've seen a lot go. The ones who stay in the game seem to be the ones who happen to meet someone while they are living life. The people who run out and try to "find somebody" never seem to get relationships that last very long at all.

I have concluded it is better to just take a nap (in a tree!) and wait to see what life brings. If I wait years, decades, or if I never find somebody at all, it will be better than my odds of finding a good relationship by chasing it.

Besides, my voice breaks when I try to sing "I'm going through the big D, and don't mean Dallas" anyway.

Well shoot, I ALMOST made it to the end without being facetious.

I have been married for 52 years, and have mostly avoided heartbreak, divorce, and drama.

 

[Papermonkey]

God didn't create us to be abused by our spouse.

God may hate divorce but I'm sure he hates to see a wife beaten to death by her husband.

Divorce can save a life. And God forgives. Since we're not Jews the rules regarding divorce don't apply.

Divorce can save a life. Because love isn't wrapped in terrorism.

 

[notonmywatch]

Since we're not Jews the rules regarding divorce don't apply.

I haven't read any other posts here yet as your post is what made me aware of this thread. I'll go back and read the full conversation later today. For now, I'm curious as to why you would say this. Didn't Paul quote the Old Testament law as it pertains to divorce to both Jews and Gentiles alike in his epistles?

To the Romans:

Romans 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Romans 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

To the Corinthians:

1Corinthians 7:39
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

 

[Lynx]

Scripture is never flippant.

I dunno... Two of the disciples wanted Jesus to zap some mockers with fire from the sky. Later Jesus calls them the sons of thunder.

 

[notonmywatch]

Interesting responses... I have two Christian friends in awful marriages, and I want to see them get relief, but at the same time not sin against God. So, I want to hear what people say.

I will look at your blog @cinder and, @MsMediator , I think by that mental standard all of us may be guilty then of giving our spouses grounds for divorce. I don't think most of us could stay married more than a week. But, I have trouble arguing against your thought.

I also am inclined to agree that their spouses are not saved. My friend's wife never seems to admit to any logs in her own eyes, and uses the Bible as a weapon against her husband. Who does that but the accuser?? Oh, and she's attacked him. Because of CA law, the police said there's nothing they can do unless he has marks on his body. But, if he hits her back, it's over for him.

And, my other friend's husband never expresses gratitude or praises her, sex seems to be about what he wants, he has physically dragged her around, never seems to have a devotional period with God and almost never attends church with her, puts up a spiritual face when he does, and his favorite verse appears to be the one where wives are told to submit to their husbands. He was Mr Charm School during their courting period, and he did a 180° after the wedding, showing a completely different face. Her family was very much taken aback by his turnaround, but he was now the husband and (if I remember correctly) reminded them that there was nothing they could do. He's a dirtbag. But, is this grounds for a Godly divorce?

I know God hates divorce. But, does He like these marriages?

I'm just starting to go through this thread, so I don't know what others here have said yet.

You asked if God likes these marriages that you described, and I think that the obvious answer is no. However, this doesn't mean that the solution is necessarily divorce. What about repentance? In the cases that you mentioned, have either of the wronged parties, who are probably guilty of some wrongs themselves, followed the Biblical pattern for possible reconciliation? In other words, have they gone to their spouses first, then brought in two or three other witnesses, and ultimately taken the matter before the church if the first two attempts for reconciliation have failed? Or, will they simply turn to the secular courts for a way out of a presently bad situation?

 

[notonmywatch]

Sorry to hear about your friends, did you ask them about their vows? You know, for better or for worse? Maybe they should change marriage vows to, for better or divorce?!?! It wouldn't be to far from the truth many times.

"Until death do us part"? Ha!

I really believe marriage isn't really for most people, but sexual drive corrupts, good decision making.

Why do I say this?

I think it's possible that marriage is broken down into marri and age. Let's break this down shall we?

"Marri" means foolishness, nonsense, and insanity.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marri

Next we have the word "age", which means, length of time.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/age

Now if we combine both Marri and age, we shall get marriage, which appears to mean a time of foolishness, nonsense, and insanity.

Ask your friends to see if the the time the spent in marriage, seemed to be like a time of foolishness, nonsense, and insanity...

Yeah, I also heard the hidden secret, that marriage is really bad, but it's not really talked about. I remember this one customer told me a long time ago told me, "never get married". His wife was right there next to him, and then his wife said, "don't tell him that". lol

Or maybe we can goto the wise words of Wayne Campbell...

View attachment 245904

I also remember my old pastor long ago said, "I don't do marriage counseling". One of friends told me not to long ago, don't get married, unless you want kids. Alrighty then!

For those who happily married, this post wasn't meant to insult anyone, but just a perspective of someone deciding not to get married.

If you study the actual etymology of the word "marriage", then it has nothing at all to do with the words "marri" and "age".

 

[justahumanbeing]

God hates it. But, would He tell a woman (or a man) who is being abused by their spouse, either mentally or physically or both, that they must remain married?

Jesus gave one out: sexual infidelity. But, I have two solid Christian friends (one man and one woman) who are starting the process of breaking away from their spouses. As far as I know, sexual unfaithfulness is not reason. But, rather, years of mental and physical abuse is.

What say you all?

A lot of us carry a lot of inbuilt reactions based on our upbringing and childhood. When two people marry, it's all good at the start. It's not how it starts that matters. But how that life is lived and how you complete that life.

I cannot speak for myself because I've never been married. And yes, you already know what God would say concerning divorce.

Though I've never been married, I have observed marriages. Any marriage can survive as long as there is mutual respect and love between the spouses.

Physical abuse is bad. No spouse need take all that. It's the opposite of a spouse's duty. Marriage is to love one another.

Verbal abuse is bad too. But sticks and stones. Good chance to work around that. People carry a lot of bad in them. You don't just marry the good in a person, but the bad too. That bad, you have to ignore positively.

Find ways to fill in the gap. Children bring spouses together. At least they're supposed to.

I know cases personally where spouses have died because of not just lack of love but lack of care. Despite having enough. And there are difficulties where some spouses may not be good for your career. Some spouses may not care enough for the children. They may not care enough for you. They may take time off, physically, mentally. Because they're handling things in their life without being open.

Correct and understandable communication is important to run a successful marriage.

I come from a home where I wasn't properly loved and cared for by my parents. They weren't there for each other I guess. Two different minded spouses. No love or respect for each other. Lots of abuse. Lots of promises broken. Verbally, physically. Especially from my father's side. My mother was there for us. So we went through all that with some comfort, but it's never good.

Every life is hard. You have to be willing to take the bad. That's your cross.

A spouse is more important than a successful career. More important than other people like friends or relatives. And must be treated as such.

But married life is a lot of adjusting. Lots of communication. Openness.

God will always help a spouse save that marriage. Because separation is our idea, not God's idea.

Prayer, fasting, penance can help drive away the demons and temptations married people face.

Counseling is a very good option. If you can afford that. Bonding activities like doing a sport together like shuttle badminton or a game of chess. Spending quality time is important.

Fights happen because of unfulfilled wants and desires.
Those need to be addressed by the respective spouses.

You know, I could write a book on this. But a marriage can work when the couple or at least one of them thinks it is possible. All I can say is that you can't throw in the towel without a fight and without knowing for certain that it will not work.

I cannot think more about this because I'm single. These are my thoughts. May God bless and guide people considering divorce. Ultimately what God wants should be considered before that decision. But living with a woman who is an enemy to you and your family in the guise of a spouse or a husband who is cold hearted and doesn't care or is too far gone to care. It's the individual's choice. It's sad. But sometimes you have to think about your life too. But as Christians, it is our call to love unconditionally.

 

[kinda]

If you study the actual etymology of the word "marriage", then it has nothing at all to do with the words "marri" and "age".

If you study married couples, let me know if you see any foolishness, non-sense, and insanity.

If you listen to any divorced people, let me know if there is any references to foolishness, non-sense, and insanity about their marriage.

You may question the etymology of my conclusions, but my conclusions still ring true to me.

 

[notonmywatch]

If you study married couples, let me know if you see any foolishness, non-sense, and insanity.

If you listen to any divorced people, let me know if there is any references to foolishness, non-sense, and insanity about their marriage.

You may question the etymology of my conclusions, but my conclusions still ring true to me.

I questioned the etymology of the word "marriage" because what you presented is false. By suggesting that "marriage", something which was ordained of God way back in Genesis, means "a time of foolishness, nonsense, and insanity", you're basically accusing God of ordaining that which is foolish, nonsensical, and insane. That's not something that I'd recommend you ever do again.

 

[notonmywatch]

Polygamy was allowed when God said he hates divorce....and Polygamy was mandated in Israeli Law in certain circumstances.

I recently asked why God allowed men to have multiple wives under the Old Testament:

https://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/what-is-your-question.208842/page-2#post-4981779

Does anybody have a scriptural answer for this? If so, then I'd love to know what it is.

Also, what do you mean when you say that "polygamy was mandated in Israeli law in certain circumstances"? Can you provide me with an example? Thank you.

 

[kinda]

I questioned the etymology of the word "marriage" because what you presented is false. By suggesting that "marriage", something which was ordained of God way back in Genesis, means "a time of foolishness, nonsense, and insanity", you're basically accusing God of ordaining that which is foolish, nonsensical, and insane. That's not something that I'd recommend you ever do again.

If you ever get married, or ever been married, let me know how far from the truth my conclusions are. You obviously can't accept the fact, that it's better NOT to get married. "The one who can accept this should accept it."

If you want to talk Bible, I would submit to you, that people are sinners, and tend to mess up what God created. If marriage was so good, why did Jesus and disciples hint, it's better for people not to get married? hmmmm?

Than add to the fact many people divorce and get remarried, which entirely against scripture. Those who get divorced and remarried and claim that this act is ordained by God, are in error.

This will be last post in this thread. I'm sure I have offended many, but that was never my intention. My intention for my posts was to state what I believe is true, and maybe have a few jokes here and there.


Mathew 19:

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”


1 Corinthians 7:

8Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Mark 10:11-12

11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

 

[notonmywatch]

The two seeking separations are Christians.

Seeing how you named this thread "divorce", I'm assuming that by "separations" you mean divorces. Simply out of curiosity, have you or anybody else asked them if they believe that they have scriptural grounds for divorces based upon what they're experiencing? If so, then can you share with us what scriptures they're basing those grounds on?

It is their spouses who's salvation I seriously question, since neither exhibits fruit, and are abusive towards the Christians I've been talking about. The abusing wife thinks she can do no wrong. Her "sin" was marrying this man who gives her so much trouble (that she threatens divorce, affairs, lunges at him with forks), and the man doesn't admit to any wrong either. He expects his wife to be a slave for his personal needs and enjoyment -- based on the words of the lady, but I generally do trust her, a lot.

Yeah, abusers don't sound too Christian to me. God definitely hates abuse in general. and I'd imagine that he hates it even more when it's of the physical variety.

Malachi 2:16
For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

Covering violence with one's garment, or hiding it under a cloak of religiosity, while dealing treacherously with one's spouse is definitely something that God seriously frowns upon. In situations where the abuse has turned physical, it's probably best for some sort of separation until there's some genuine repentance on the part of the offending party. I'd still recommend bringing it to the church first, before any police or court involvement, but, depending on the severity of the threat of real danger, one might need to go directly to the police first for their own safety.

When it comes to verbal abuse, although I'm not downplaying its own severity, it might be best for the abused party to just stay put. I say this because of something that Peter said.

1Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1Peter 3:2
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

By beginning with the word "likewise", Peter was comparing his advice to the advice he had previously given pertaining to those who were in subjection to froward government rulers and froward masters. In both cases, he basically told them to overcome evil by doing good themselves.

 

[notonmywatch]

If you ever get married, or ever been married, let me know how far from the truth my conclusions are.

I merely questioned your suggested etymology of the word "marriage", and rightly so.

You obviously can't accept the fact, that it's better NOT to get married. "The one who can accept this should accept it."

Speaking of who can "accept it", did you read the verses that you quoted?

Mathew 19:

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Jesus said that "only those to whom it has been given" could accept celibacy. In other words, it doesn't apply to everyone. If it did, then the people that Jesus was speaking to would have either never been born or they would all have been born out of wedlock.

If you want to talk Bible, I would submit to you, that people are sinners, and tend to mess up what God created.

And I would totally agree with such a submission. We definitely live in a fallen world, and most people are doing things their own ways as opposed to God's ways. Still, this doesn't give us the right to condemn the institution of marriage as if it is evil in and of itself. Instead, it is evil people who make marriage look bad when it's actually something good if done God's way.

Proverbs 18:22
Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

If marriage was so good, why did Jesus and disciples hint, it's better for people not to get married? hmmmm?

"Findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD". It is a good thing, if done the Lord's way, but, even then, not everyone is called to it.

Than add to the fact many people divorce and get remarried, which entirely against scripture. Those who get divorced and remarried and claim that this act is ordained by God, are in error.

I'm not sure if it's entirely in error. There may be the exception clause of sexual immorality. Either way, I personally believe that most remarriages are really adultery because there is no biblical support or grounds for them.

This will be last post in this thread. I'm sure I have offended many, but that was never my intention. My intention for my posts was to state what I believe is true, and maybe have a few jokes here and there.

Just so you know, you definitely didn't offend me. I was simply questioning your etymological definition of the word "marriage". We seem to have similar beliefs on other things.

Mathew 19:

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”


1 Corinthians 7:

8Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Mark 10:11-12

11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Amen.

 

[Papermonkey]

I haven't read any other posts here yet as your post is what made me aware of this thread. I'll go back and read the full conversation later today. For now, I'm curious as to why you would say this. Didn't Paul quote the Old Testament law as it pertains to divorce to both Jews and Gentiles alike in his epistles?

To the Romans:

Romans 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Romans 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

To the Corinthians:

1Corinthians 7:39
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Galatians 2:19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

 

[Cameron143]

I dunno... Two of the disciples wanted Jesus to zap some mockers with fire from the sky. Later Jesus calls them the sons of thunder.

They could have been the sons of lightening had they been a little more considerate

 

[JohnDB]

I recently asked why God allowed men to have multiple wives under the Old Testament:

https://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/what-is-your-question.208842/page-2#post-4981779

Does anybody have a scriptural answer for this? If so, then I'd love to know what it is.

Also, what do you mean when you say that "polygamy was mandated in Israeli law in certain circumstances"? Can you provide me with an example? Thank you.

Judah and Tamar in Genesis after God killed Onan and Tamar's husband had died.
You were mandated under the Law to marry your brother's wife if he died.

 

[notonmywatch]

Judah and Tamar in Genesis after God killed Onan and Tamar's husband had died.
You were mandated under the Law to marry your brother's wife if he died.

I understand that, but how do you consider that to be polygamy when the original husband was dead?