Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint?

[HealthAndHappiness]

What makes a Christian a Christian? And from your perspective, what would disqualify the RCC from being Christian?

That's a good question Jocund!
I was raised RC. My Mom taught Sunday school and we went on group activities with the priest, very active in that church.
As a child I asked my Mom why everyone went up front to eat the wafers and drink the wine. She told me that those were LITERALLY the body and blood of Christ in a hidden form/ appearance.
I later learned that this belief and practice was required for salvation as we're 6 or 7 other sacraments. Were these considered good deeds/ works? Yes indeed, they were regarded as the most highly esteemed works, all of which were necessary for eternal life according to Roman Catholicism.

One day a man cared enough to share the following with me.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. :Not of works, lest any man should boast."

That's the verse that helped me understand the grace of God.
Grace is what Jesus did on behalf of us unworthy sinners who wronged Him. He gave in spite of our disobedience. We deserve death in hell, but He offers life. I had been raised with the idea that I had to contribute my own efforts, goodness/works/ deeds to be saved. The fact was shown to me that salvation is "not if yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works..."
I had it backwards. God Provided that gift.
My acceptance of that gift is Not by giving Him some money, sacrament, or beatitudes.
My acceptance of that eternal life is based solely upon a rejection of all that stuff AND making Jesus the Object of my trust/ faith/ believing in Him alone.

" 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

That sounds familiar! 🙂
But think about the meaning as Paul understood Jesus to be saying to us.
We perish and are condemned in hell IF we believe ( put our trust/ faith) in the Eucharist, baptism, marriage, priesthood, or any other sacrament or beatitudes. What Jesus demands is total trust in Him, The only begotten Son of God, in order to be totally certain of receiving everlasting life.

You seem like a kind person Jocund.
I can't recall ever having an argument with you. I appreciate your cordiality since I've been here. As a former RC, it seems like we might have a similar background. Perhaps you have mixed faith in Christ with faith in your works, just as I did growing up. I encourage you to take a minute to watch the following with an open Bible and open mind. I would be very happy if you would get such a wonderful gift and 100% assurance of life forever with the Lord.
(Link below)
How to become 100% sure of heaven

St. John said to those who decided to call upon Jesus in total faith...
"11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

@Jocund , I will pray for you my friend, as I hope that you will pray at the link at the end.

To your happiness and life everlasting.
☕🙂 👍 📖

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

PS:. I forgot to mention that I was told as a former Catholic that the Lord's Supper/ eucharist, was the literal body and blood of Jesus. I did not accept that teaching and later on saw from the Bible that it was to be done "in remembrance of me," He said.
I believe that it is to be practiced as a memorial, rather than a literal understanding. I don't believe that to be literal as I don't believe that Jesus is a literal lamb (animal), or a literal wooden door. He is however, the literal way of salvation because He was slain for our sins.

 

[ResidentAlien]

What makes a Christian a Christian? And from your perspective, what would disqualify the RCC from being Christian?

Probably the number one thing that disqualifies a Catholic from being a Christian is their refusal to accept the true Jesus. They practice transubstantiation and the mass, in which their Jesus is sacrificed over and over again. It's literally called the "sacrifice of the mass." The true Jesus died once for all. His work on the cross is finished. The true Jesus can't be called down over and over to be sacrificed again and again. They also bend the knee to the wafer and the wine claiming it is literally Jesus in disguise.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Eucharist? Here's what the Early Church Fathers thought about that: “We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

And: "’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191])." https://www.churchfathers.org/the-real-presence

And here's the Scripture. First, the Lord Himself: "49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” (John 6)

And then St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10: "16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf. 18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?"

Eucharist comes from the Biblical Greek Word for Thanksgiving. See "gave thanks εὐχαριστήσας (eucharistēsas)" https://biblehub.com/luke/22-19.htm The Church Fathers, some of whom spoke Greek as a first language, used the same term.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Back to the thread topic. Here is more context on the Book of Maccabees:

"The Maccabees (/ˈmækəˌbiːz/), also spelled Machabees (Hebrew: מַכַּבִּים, Makkabbīm or מַקַבִּים, Maqabbīm; Latin: Machabaei or Maccabaei; Ancient Greek: Μακκαβαῖοι, Makkabaioi), were a group of Jewish rebel warriors who took control of Judea, which at the time was part of the Seleucid Empire.[1][2] They founded the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled from 167 BCE to 37 BCE,[3] being a fully independent kingdom from about 110 to 63 BCE...

When Antiochus IV Epiphanes (ca. 215–164 BCE) became ruler of the Seleucid Empire in 175 BCE, Onias III held the office of High Priest in Jerusalem. To Antiochus, the High Priest was merely a local governor within his realm, a man whom he could appoint or dismiss at will, while orthodox Jews saw the holder of the High Priesthood as divinely appointed.[12] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees

"2 Macc 15:
12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews:

13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty:

14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God."

This shows that, before Christ's birth, the Jewish faithful believed:

(1) faithful high Priests like the Onias mentioned here "prayed for all the people of the Jews".
(2) After Onias, another well known Biblical figure, the Prophet Jeremiah was also alive with God.
(3) And it clearly shows - at least as a historical belief of the Jews - that he too, from Heaven "prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city", he, namely, "Jeremiah the Prophet of God" who had died some 500 years earlier.

God Bless.

 

[Adstar]

What makes a Christian a Christian? And from your perspective, what would disqualify the RCC from being Christian?

A Christian believes the Word of God.. As in the Biblical teachings of God, which include the teachings of Jesus who is The WORD of GOD.. Christians also Trust that the Atonement that Jesus secured by His sacrificial death on the cross pays the penalty for all our sins in full.. The catholic religion does not believe that Jesus paid the penalty for all our sins on the cross.. They believe that people need to go to a place called purgatory after death to suffer there to have their sins purged.. I was born into a catholic family.. had a devout catholic dad, an uncle who is a catholic priest we never missed a Sunday mass or other religous days.. i was an alter boy for 10 years.. so i know all about the catholic religion.. The purgatory example is just the tip of the iceburg as far as false teachings of the catholic church..

I was fortunate that when i was in my early 20's a work mate was kind enough to give me a Bible to read and i read it.. I only became a Christian because i read that Bible.. From a false works bondage religion of catholisim to finding out about the Loving Atoning grace of The LORD Jesus.. That was a total transformation in my view of everything.. I have been very fortunate to have been blessed by God who took me out of darkness and into the light..

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Purgatory is based on 1 Cor 3:15 and was taught by Early Christians and Church Fathers like St. Augustine. If one is living a holy life and avoiding serious sin, one will most likely have a short purgatory. However, if one is living in all sorts of sin, then just as one may be disciplined in this life, one may be disciplined by the Lord after it also, but ultimately be saved.

1 Cor 3:15: "If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

"Advocates of purgatory find support in numerous scriptural and non-scriptural traditions. The well-attested early Christian practice of prayer for the dead, for example, was encouraged by the episode (rejected by Protestants as apocryphal) in which Judas Maccabeus (Jewish leader of the revolt against the tyrant Antiochus IV Epiphanes) makes atonement for the idolatry of his fallen soldiers by providing prayers and a monetary sin offering on their behalf (2 Maccabees 12:41–46), by the Apostle Paul’s prayer for Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:18), and by the implication in Matthew 12:32 that there may be forgiveness of sins in the world to come. The parable of Dives and Lazarus in Luke 16:19–26 and the words of Jesus from the cross to the repentant thief in Luke 23:43 are also cited in support of an interim period before the Day of Judgment during which the damned may hope for respite, the blessed preview their reward, and the “mixed” undergo correction. The noncanonical tradition that on Holy Saturday Christ invaded the realm of the dead and liberated Adam and Eve and the biblical patriarchs lends support to the view that there is a temporary realm of imprisonment after death.

Some Christian writers speak of an “intelligent” fire that tortures the damned, tests and purifies the mixed (e.g., 1 Corinthians 3:11–15), and is pleasant to the saints. Analogous ideas are found in rabbinic literature, including the Babylonian Talmud. According to Hebrews 12:29, God himself is “a consuming fire.” Against the view that all humankind will ultimately be saved by passing through a cleansing fire—a doctrine considered sympathetically by the theologians Origen (c. 185–c. 254) and St. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–c. 394) and prominent in Zoroastrian eschatology—St. Augustine (354–430) distinguished between the purgatorial fire that burns off stains and the everlasting fire that consumes those who die unrepentant and unreconciled to the church. Pope Gregory I (reigned 590–604) elaborated the doctrine still further, treating the purgatorial fire as an extension beyond the grave of the metaphorical fire of redemptive suffering. While commending the practice of offering masses for the sake of suffering souls, he emphasized, as Augustine did, that the question of salvation or damnation is settled at the moment of death. Only those destined for salvation pass through purgatory." https://www.britannica.com/topic/purgatory-Roman-Catholicism

 

[TMS]

Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint... like by writing a letter to one and asking for a bunch of toys.

In the bible anyone that claimed to talk with the dead was sinning.

God said it was wrong.

 

[TMS]

Isa 8:19-20
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Deu 18:11-12
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Necromancer is to seek after or require to talk with the dead.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Necromancy is something very different. It's an attempt to conjure up evil spirits to foretell the future. Very different from believing the Saints are alive in the Presence of God, and requesting them to pray for us. In Luk 16, Abraham was in the presence of God, and the Rich Man made some requests of him. In the Book of Maccabees, it is said Jeremiah prays for Israel.

"2 Macc 15:
12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews:

13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty:

14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God."

 

[RizenPhoenix]

I don't pray to people here.
I want to know why they are presumed to get omniscience in order to hear prayers once they get to heaven? The Bible is real clear on who goes there or not. Even raised a Roman Catholic, I never had that explained.
What is their official stance on the special power to perceive over the distance, the prayers of others? I don't find that in the Bible. I've heard it stated so many times, that I thought that would be a major dogma of the Catholic denominations.

Praying on another behalf is not necessary, but anyone should pray for the world, friends, family, others. How can a sinful human Roman 3:23 claim that they need to do it for you? Doesn't it say ALL have sinned, why would you trust another imperfect human with your precious gift. Only God can forgive sin so you would want to go to him for forgiveness in prayer. Psalms 65:2, states ALL SORTS will come that is good and bad.

 

[RizenPhoenix]

That's your major mistake you think they are Christians.. They are not Christians they belong to a works salvation cult that denies the effectivness of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus.. Thats why they invented the doctrine of purgatory where they say peopl;e go after death to have their sins purged..

And, may I add, they claim infallible and intercessors to God which is only Jesus' place between man and God. Jesus is only a password that opens the channel for you to speak to God directly. Jesus doesn't even hear our prayers. RCCs are sinful humans just like everyone else, Roman 3:23. If they can get past this scripture...

 

[RizenPhoenix]

What makes a Christian a Christian? And from your perspective, what would disqualify the RCC from being Christian?

What would disqualify, probably Matthew 7:21-23. To much of their doctrine is not Bible based, but it glorifies them as imperfect men. However, they have more ancient manuscripts with truth that have not been shared with the world. They have literature that a Saint would have died to get their hand on. The Vatican basement floors have a plethora of hidden documents, pictures and artifacts that are priceless! Gosh they still don't promote Bible reading by their members and this was their profile for centuries. They wanted to tell you from their mouth. I'm just grateful we at least have the Bible and the apocrypha. Most countries are still waiting.

 

[RizenPhoenix]

This rhetoric presupposes that the RCC would be the Whore of Babylon.



I'm no RCC expert, but I imagine that they would actually have fairly concrete hermeneutics. It would be great to have an RCC expert in here to test.



Well, you know, except Rev 19:21, Rom 13:4, etc.



It's funny that you would imply that the god referenced in the Talmud would be the God of the Bible and yet somehow you count RCC Christians as devil worshippers.

Examine the "fruit that they bear" and the recorded history of this sect. Mathew 7:16 OMG, the Spanish Inquisition, support of the Nazi War, the pedophilia, so much more. They are not alone there are many Christian sects that are not fulfilling the call to be Shepherds. Once you know better you do better and clean up the people in the church to rid yourself of the demons. You don't just keep the bad in your mist. I don't want to isolate this sect, but that is what the subject matter is about so... Forgive me God, if I offended the exemplary ones trying to find their way out.

 

[RizenPhoenix]

Necromancy is something very different. It's an attempt to conjure up evil spirits to foretell the future. Very different from believing the Saints are alive in the Presence of God, and requesting them to pray for us. In Luk 16, Abraham was in the presence of God, and the Rich Man made some requests of him. In the Book of Maccabees, it is said Jeremiah prays for Israel.

"2 Macc 15:
12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews:

13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty:

14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God."

Reason, why would you need to pray to anyone but God? I don't care if the Saints already in Heaven are sitting on God's lap (not that God actually has a lap). If God is not pleased with a person he doesn't need a Saint in Heaven disputing his decision. I think we over-think things and look for ways around our badness. Let's say you do something horribly bad. So, you go and pray to a Saint in Heaven to go and discuss this with God. God will tell that Saint who are you to try and change my decision or overstep my authority. God, Yahweh/Jehovah/Yehova is a all powerful entity he doesn't need a Saint in Heaven to do his job. Saints while on the Earth were sinners to! Yes, People prayed for their congregation, but they were on Earth. I pray for my family, etc., but I don't try to put myself in a position of power. I tell them you pray and I'll pray!

 

[swatfrog]

No one knows the exact date of His birth; that's the point. December 25 was chosen precisely because it is a pagan holiday. It's the day the Romans celebrated the winter solstice, or Saturnalia—the birthday of the unconquered sun. The geniuses at the time thought a pagan holiday would make people more eager to be Christians.

you forgot to mention Easter is a pagan god ,after Ishtar, Ashtoreth and the like .
early Christians did not celebrate christmas at all ,in fact the story of Krampus is closer to the truth. where monks would dress up to scare the bad children and in some cases even punish them.

 

[swatfrog]

Reason, why would you need to pray to anyone but God? I don't care if the Saints already in Heaven are sitting on God's lap (not that God actually has a lap). If God is not pleased with a person he doesn't need a Saint in Heaven disputing his decision. I think we over-think things and look for ways around our badness. Let's say you do something horribly bad. So, you go and pray to a Saint in Heaven to go and discuss this with God. God will tell that Saint who are you to try and change my decision or overstep my authority. God, Yahweh/Jehovah/Yehova is a all powerful entity he doesn't need a Saint in Heaven to do his job. Saints while on the Earth were sinners to! Yes, People prayed for their congregation, but they were on Earth. I pray for my family, etc., but I don't try to put myself in a position of power. I tell them you pray and I'll pray!

not to mention that Maccasbees is NOT scriptual hence why its part of the Apocrapha and not part of the bible.

 

[swatfrog]

Is Santa really Satan parading like a Spirit of Light at Christmas ------to steal the lime light from the myth that Jesus was born on Christmas Day ----

Lets face it ---when everyone comes to have dinner on Christmas ----Jesus is not the Conversation ---it is all about WHAT SANTA BROUGHT ------Jesus is from the majority peoples mind and lips on Christmas Day ----

Interesting Read ---food for thought

https://www.jesusdaily.org/are-there-hidden-similarities-between-jesus-and-santa-claus-for-a-reason/

Are There Hidden Similarities Between Jesus and Santa Claus for a Reason?

Dr. Aaron Tabor, MD


Someone showed me this list recently and I really was surprised by it.
If you had asked me to name one connection between Jesus and Santa I guess I would have said they both have beards, thats about it. But little did I realize how much they had in common. Is this a coincidence? Regardless of what you believe about ‘ol Kris Kringle, could he have been intentionally designed to mimic Jesus is some ways? We will let you decide.

1. Jesus has white hair like wool in Revelations. (Rev 1:14).
Santa has white hair like wool.

2. Jesus has a beard (Isaiah 50:6).
Santa has a beard.

3. Jesus comes in red apparel (Isaiah 63:1-2).
Santa comes in red apparel.

4. Jesus’ hour of His coming is a mystery (Luke 12:40; Mark 13:33).
Santa’s hour of his coming is a mystery.

5 Jesus comes from the North where He lives (Ezekiel 1:4; Psalm 48:2).
Santa comes from the North where he lives: North Pole.

6. Jesus is a carpenter (Mark 6:3).
Santa is a toy carpenter.

7. Jesus comes as a thief in the night (Matthew 24:43-44).
Santa comes like a thief in the night and even gains entrance to homes down a chimney like thieves have done.

8. Jesus is omnipotent — all powerful (Rev 19:6).
Santa is omnipotent — he delivers all the toys of the world in one night.

9. Jesus is omniscient — knows all (Hebrews 4:13; 1 John 3:20).
Santa is omniscient — knows if every single child has been good or bad for the entire year.

10. Jesus is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Ephesians 4:6; John 3:13).
Santa is omnipresent — sees when you are awake or asleep. Has to be everywhere at once.

11. Jesus is ageless and eternal (Rev 1:8; 21:6).
Santa lives forever

12. Jesus lives in men (1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16-17).
Santa lives in the hearts of children.

13. Jesus is a giver of Gifts (Ephesians 4:8).
Santa is a giver of Gifts.

14. We are told to boldly go to the throne of Jesus’ Grace for our needs (Heb 4:16).
Children are asked to approach Santa’s throne to ask for anything they want.

15. Jesus commands children to obey parents (Colossians 3:20).
Santa tells children to obey parents.

16. Jesus wants little children to come to Him (Mark 10:14).
Santa bids children to come to him.

17. Jesus judges (Rom 14:10; Rev 20:2).
Santa judges whether we are naughty or nice.

18. Jesus is called the Everlasting Father (Isa 9:6).
Santa is called Father Christmas.

19. Jesus is the Christ Child (Matt 1:23; Luke 2:11-12).
Santa is also called “Kris Kringle” which means the Christ Child in Austrian and German lore.

20. Jesus is worthy of Prayers and Worship (Rev 5:14; Hebrews 1:6).
Children make wishes to “St.Nick” and have deep love for him.

21. God says, “Ho, ho … (Zechariah 2:6).
Santa says, “Ho, ho, ho …”.

22. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, the Image of God (Isaiah 9:6; Hebrews 1:3).
Santa is the symbol of World Peace, an image of the Christmas Season.

23. Jesus knows all of our sins (Hebrews 4:13).
Santa knows who is naughty or nice

Its a faith killer for children, like the easter bunny and tooth fairy, once they find out these characters arent real, it begins the path of doubt when it comes to Jesus, God and the bible , which makes many people see it all as mythological nonsense.
children put so much faith into these beliefs, that when they find out the truth , they're crushed and begin to wonder just what is real and true. Not only that , we as parents we teach them its ok to lie about these things as well as teach our children that we our selves are liars and these kind of lies are ok.....and thus begins the destroying of their faith and what is truth

 

[ResidentAlien]

you forgot to mention Easter is a pagan god ,after Ishtar, Ashtoreth and the like .
early Christians did not celebrate christmas at all ,in fact the story of Krampus is closer to the truth. where monks would dress up to scare the bad children and in some cases even punish them.

Easter at least has some substance from scripture on which it's based. Christ was crucified at the time of the Passover and Easter is celebrated at the this time. However, I have a couple of issues with Easter. One, everyone celebrates Easter on the same day, one that was mandated by Catholicism. Sorry, but Catholicism doesn't dictate to me. Two, every day should be Easter for Christians. Why do we single out one day to celebrate the Lord's resurrection?

 

[Magenta]

Very different from believing the Saints are alive in the Presence of God, and requesting them to pray for us.

There is zero Scripture support for praying to anyone other than God.