Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint?

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Nov 26, 2021
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#41
Jesus Christ is the Reason for the Season. At Christmas, we should teach our children and others about (1) Christ's Virgin Birth, (2) How He is the Son of God (3) Our Lord and Savior (4) Who would die for our sins (5) Whom Angels praised at His Birth (6) Whom Shepherds came to worship (7) to whom the 3 Wise Men offered Gifts of Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh.

Saint Nicholas was a 4th century Christian Bishop. He was devoted to the Poor and a staunch supporter of the Divinity of Christ at the Council of Nicea. He wasn't a fat man, but rather an ascetic; he did not climb down chimneys, as the commercialized false version has it. However, the history of his life shows many other good works done out of love for Christ and love for neighbor, such as relieving a poor father who was about to sell his daughters into prostitution to pay the debts.

See source: https://mostholytheotokos.com/saint-nicholas-of-myra/

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And now the time has come to tell of one of his numerous deeds of compassion, as a testimony to his generosity.

There was a man living in Patara who was once wealthy and renowned, but his fortune waned. He fell into poverty and was scorned by those who before had regarded him highly. This man had three beautiful daughters, and when the necessities of life began to fail him, he decided to make his house a brothel and sell their bodies. Oh, what wicked schemes are born of destitution! The man had already devised his unseemly plan and was making preparations to fulfill it when God, Who loves us and does not wish to see us perish, sent down grace into the heart of His favorite, the holy priest Nicholas, mystically inspiring him to assist the wretch and turn him away from sin. Hearing of the father’s poverty and learning by divine revelation of his foul scheme, Nicholas felt deep pity for him and resolved to snatch him and his daughters from penury and sin as if from fire, by giving them generous alms. However, the saint did not want to help the man openly, for two reasons. Firstly, obedient to the words of the Gospel, Take heed that you do not your alms before men, he sought to avoid the empty praise of men. Secondly, since the man was once rich and had only recently fallen on bad times, Nicholas did not wish to humiliate him. Knowing how mortifying it is for someone who once enjoyed wealth and renown to accept alms (since he is reminded of his former prosperity), the saint thought it best to obey Christ’s words: Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth. So great was Nicholas’ desire to avoid praise that he attempted to hide himself even from those whom he assisted! He went at midnight to the man’s home, threw a large bag of gold into the house through a window, and fled. The next morning, when he rose, the man found the bag and untied it. Seeing the gold, he became frightened, thinking it was an illusion, since he knew of no one likely to aid him so generously. Only when he touched it did he become convinced that what he saw was real and permit himself to weep with happiness. Although he wondered for a long time who might be his benefactor, he could think of no one. Ascribing his good fortune to providence, he thanked God unceasingly, glorifying the Lord Who cares for all men. Without delay he married off his eldest daughter, using the gold to provide her dowry. Learning what the man had done, the wondrous Nicholas was very pleased and prepared to assist the second daughter. He made ready another bag of gold, of the same value, and unknown to all, went by night and threw it into the man’s house through the same window. When the father rose the next morning and found the second bag, he was even more amazed than before, and falling to the floor, wept and cried, “O merciful God, Who didst purchase my salvation with Thy precious blood, Thou hast ransomed my home and children from the snares of the enemy! I beseech Thee to reveal to me who it was that accomplished Thy will and served as minister of Thy kindness and love for man. Show me the earthly angel that hath prevented us from perishing in sin, delivering us from destitution and my base plots. Behold, Lord, because Thy favourite hath assisted me so generously, I am now able to find a husband for my second daughter and escape the nets of the devil, who hoped to multiply mine evil deeds, which even before this merited eternal punishment.”

Thanking the Lord for his kindness, the man celebrated the wedding of his second daughter. He trusted that God would provide a lawful husband for his third child and again send him the money he needed. Because he wished to know who was bringing the gold, he did not sleep at night, but watched in the hope of catching sight of his secret patron. It was not long before Christ’s favorite came a third time, walking very quietly, and again cast a bag of money through the window. The father heard it striking the floor and ran as fast as he could in pursuit of the saint. When he caught up with him, he recognized Nicholas, who was known to all because of his virtuous life and noble ancestry. He fell at the holy priest’s feet and kissed them, calling the saint his helper and deliverer and the rescuer of souls. “If the merciful Lord had not inspired you to come to my aid,” he exclaimed, “my daughters and I, the wretch, would have perished in the fires of Sodom. But glory to God, you have saved us from a grievous fall!” Only with the greatest difficulty did Nicholas succeed in raising him to his feet and compelling him to swear that he would tell no one what had occurred as long as his benefactor remained alive. After speaking to the man at length about things profitable to the soul, the saint permitted him to return home.

From this story it is evident what deep sympathy Saint Nicholas had for the poor. It would be impossible to tell every example of his generosity to beggars or to enumerate the hungry people he fed, the naked he clothed, or the debtors he delivered from usurers ...

Seeing Saint Nicholas tend well the rational sheep of Christ’s flock, the devil, that evil serpent which never ceases to bring temptations upon God’s servants, grew ever more envious. Unable to endure the sight of piety flourishing, he incited the Roman emperors Diocletian and Maximian to initiate a persecution of Christ’s Church. The rulers issued throughout their domains an edict commanding the faithful to renounce Christ and worship the idols. Whoever refused to obey was to be fettered and imprisoned, tortured and executed. The evil storm soon reached Myra, but the blessed Nicholas, who was ready to suffer for the Lord, continued to preach the faith of Christ openly. It was not long before he was seized by the persecutors and imprisoned with many other Christians. Nicholas remained in confinement for a long time, suffering greatly from hunger and thirst and the overcrowded condition of the dungeon. His fellow prisoners, however, he nurtured constantly with the word of God, giving them the sweet waters of piety to drink and confirming them in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. He set their feet upon the unshakable foundation of trust in the Lord, and exhorted them to remain firm in their confession of Christ and to suffer eagerly for the truth. In time the storm of persecution ended, and the tranquility of freedom returned for the Christians. The truth of the Gospel shone again like the sun breaking through dark clouds, and Christ, Who loves mankind, looked upon His inheritance and put an end to heathen rule. The Lord raised up a horn of salvation for His people, the holy Cross, which appeared to the new Emperor Constantine, who assumed authority over the Roman Empire. Acknowledging the one God and placing his trust in Him, Constantine prevailed over his enemies by the power of the Cross. He commanded that pagan temples be leveled and Christian churches be built, thus destroying the vain hopes of his predecessors. Those imprisoned for Christ’s sake were honored as courageous soldiers of the Lord. The released Christians returned to their homes, and the city of Myra received back its pastor, the great hierarch Nicholas, who, as a confessor, wore the crown of martyrdom though his blood was not shed. By the grace of Christ he continued as before to heal the passions and infirmities of believers and unbelievers alike. Because God’s grace was abundantly present in him, he was greatly esteemed and loved, and everyone marveled at him. He labored for the Lord in holiness and righteousness, and shone with purity of heart and every divine gift. ...

... John, a monk of Studium, writes that Saint Nicholas was filled with divine zeal at the Council like a second Elijah, and boldly assailed Arius [who denied Christ's Divinity] not only with words but also with blows, striking him upon the face. Indignant with the saint for his audacity, the holy fathers stripped him of the emblems of the hierarchal rank. Our Lord Jesus Christ and His most blessed Mother, however, were looking down from on high on Saint Nicholas’ labors for the holy faith and were very pleased with his daring. Several of the most eminent fathers of the Council beheld a vision similar to that which Nicholas had seen before his consecration. On one side of the saint they saw Christ returning the gospel that had been taken from him; on the other, the most pure Virgin giving him back his omophorion. The bishops understood that Nicholas’ boldness was pleasing to God: they stopped reproving him and began to revere him deeply. Upon his return from the Council, Saint Nicholas publicly instructed the people, bestowing the Lord’s blessing on them."
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
#43
Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint... like by writing a letter to one and asking for a bunch of toys.

Is it acceptable to lie to your own children and tell them-- using the same mouth you use to say that God split he Red Sea and raised Jesus from the dead-- that a magic fat guy flies around in a sleight and brings presents to all the houses in the world?

Is it wrong to present this dead saint as an omniscient man who knows everything about them, and if they aren't good, that he won't bring them any toys?
just celebrate the true christmas message
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#44
No, it's not okay at all. But what I want to know is why praying to Santa is bad but observing the pagan winter solstice as Jesus' birthday is good? Why don't we just find a way to gloss over Santa too so we can honor him at Christmas; we cold say he's actually the head wise man or something.
Santa Claus derived from St. Nicholas. His feast day is in December. He lived back in the 300's, as the bishop of Myra.

Tradition says that he prayed and a storm was calmed on the sea, the the bishop of Myra had died and that one of the elders got a revelation that the next man through the door would be bishop. Nicholas, coming in from the journey to pray, was met by the elders who put on him the bishop's robe. [I don't know if Constantine had legalized Christianity and started his basilica church building spree or whether they had church buildings at that time._] It is said that he received an inheritance and that there was a problem of girls not having dowries being sold as slaves, and some of them ending up as prostitutes, and that he gave his money away. In one legend, he threw money into a poor family's home and it ended up in a stocking.

Nicolas was probably very popular also because he negotiated a cheaper tax rate for is city with the emperor.

He is also well-known for losing his temper on one occasion. There wasn't supposed to be any violence at the council of Nicea. It said that Arius words about Christ being a man angered Nicholas so, that he smacked him in the face. (Does that have anything to do with JWs not celebrating Christmas? :)

The British also had this character called Father Christmas that personified Christmas. In the US, this got merged into Santa Claus. Dutch Catholics in New York venerated saint Nicholas, and we get 'Santa Claus' from Dutch. New York had been New Amsterdam, a Dutch colony.

The power 'T'was the Night Before Christmas' was instrumental in hammering out some of the details. In the 1930's, Coca-Cola made ads with Santa Claus in his iconic red and white suit, the same colors they use for their main product, which became the iconic colors associated with Santa Claus. A song and a kids TV program popularized Rodolph the Red Nose Reindeer, adding that to the legend.

For some reason, some parents think it is okay to convince their kids that this is true and put the fear of Santa not giving them presents into the kids to get them to behave. Santa is supposedly near omniscient, knowing who you are sleeping, when you are awake, and when you do bad or good. Instead of resurrecting some and damning others to Hell, he withholds presents or gives out lumps of coal. The narrative seems to reinforce children's desires to get material things, also.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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#45
Message from Anglican pastor today compared Jesus and Santa. It was aimed at the kids but made an excellent point. "Santa" rewards only good behaviour. Jesus loves us no matter what. I never lied to my children about Santa. I was devastated when I discovered that my parents had deceived me. I would not do that to my kids.
A lot of children take it really hard. I don't know why parents continue it.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#46
No, it's not okay at all. But what I want to know is why praying to Santa is bad but observing the pagan winter solstice as Jesus' birthday is good?

I think it is unlikely that Jesus was born on December 25th, but I read an article online about this. The December 25th date was first celebrated when the church was a persecuted minority that was resistant to adopting pagan practices. Two of the early dates for Christmas fell six months after dates for Easter. January 6 was another one. Supposedly, the idea was that Jesus was born the same day of the year that He died, probably arrived at through some kind of theological speculation.

January 6, an alternative date for Christmas being argued for, eventually became a feast day associated with the wise men.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#47
M
Sometimes when a brother speaks fromthe heart it makes much sense according to scripture

*by simply lying beside your kids at night on the ground and looking up at the stars in the sky."


That's what God did with Abraham when he made the gospel covenant with him putting a greater hope than earthly land in his heart


And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:5‭-‬6 KJV


Remember he had promised the first covenant according to the flesh seed and earhtly land he said this

And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 13:14‭-‬15 KJV

Afterwards abram the Hebrew was made new an given a better promise restoring his wonder and renamed Abraham father of many nations and promised the seed of Christ Jesus and the gospel by which he was and they in Christ were called into the heavens where Abraham was called to look by his father


And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:3‭-‬7 KJV

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:8‭, ‬16‭, ‬27‭-‬29 KJ

Sorry brother your thinking and comment there just echoed in my strange mind
Of course. Echos of wonder resound in the hearts of God's people. Echo away I say.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#48
You know what’s even better?

Praying FOR the dead !

https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/prayer-for-the-dead/
Agreed, Eli. Once more, this too is present in the Book of Maccabees, part of the original 4th Century Canon of 73 Books.

2 Macc 12:43-46, DRA:

"43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."


From: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+12&version=DRA

This bears witness to how ancient the practice of prayers for the departed is, even predating Christ's Birth by centuries.

When one has the whole Biblical Canon, these disputed questions among us Christians are easily settled from them.

That Jesus Christ is Our Lord, God, King and only Savior is absolutely clear in the NT and there is no dispute at all about that.

But these Old Testament books, which show how the faithful Jewish people of God believed, help clarify these other issues.

God Bless.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#49
I think it is unlikely that Jesus was born on December 25th, but I read an article online about this. The December 25th date was first celebrated when the church was a persecuted minority that was resistant to adopting pagan practices. Two of the early dates for Christmas fell six months after dates for Easter. January 6 was another one. Supposedly, the idea was that Jesus was born the same day of the year that He died, probably arrived at through some kind of theological speculation.

January 6, an alternative date for Christmas being argued for, eventually became a feast day associated with the wise men.
Please see this article, written by yours truly for One Peter Five: https://onepeterfive.com/dates-years-birth-death-christ/

Point Three: Our Lord was crucified (in our Christian calendar) on April 3, 33 A.D. at 3:00 P.M.
We further know from the Gospel writers that Our Lord was crucified at 3:00 P.M.: “Matthew, Mark, and Luke each record that Jesus died about ‘the ninth hour’ (Matthew 27:45-50, Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:44-46).”

With some historical calculations, we can see that Nisan 14 (the Jewish Passover date) fell on April 3 in 33 A.D. Therefore, the time of Our Lord’s crucifixion and death was April 3, 33 A.D. at 3:00 P.M. (ninth hour).

First Things has a similar calculation. Live Science considers also the earthquake St. Matthew (27:54) reports.

Similarly, with Our Lord’s crucifixion date fixed, we can work backward to see when Our Lord Jesus was born.

How? Since if Christ Our Lord was 30 around 29 or 30 A.D. and died in 33 A.D. after 30 years of life and a further three and a half years of ministry, it is evident He could not have been born in 4 B.C. or any time earlier, but only in 1 B.C. or 2 B.C. If He was 33 on Nisan 14, 33 A.D., as we have seen, He was born in 1 B.C. if born before April, or in 2 B.C. if born after April. Since He was born in December, as we will see, He was born in 2 B.C.

(Recall also that there is no year 0 B.C. 1 B.C. goes to 1 A.D. Being 33 in April, 33 A.D. requires a 2 B.C. birth.)

First Point: John the Baptist was conceived around late September of 3 B.C. near the Day of Atonement.
A Hebrew calendar shows that the Day of Atonement (also called Yom Kippur) was on Sep. 19, 3 B.C. It is the contention of this article that the Baptist was conceived around this time, when St. Zachary was ministering in the Temple. In other words, the story of our salvation began on the ancient Day of Atonement commanded by God, which is fitting. It is here that the Gospel events recorded by St. Luke in chapter 1 really begin to take off.

1:5 “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia; and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth.”

As Dr. Marshall explains, a course of Abia occurs in September, and there is evidence in this passage to suggest that the time is around the Day of Atonement, when the high priest goes into the holy place, as we read in Ex. 30:10, Lev. 16:3, Heb. 9:7, etc.

Second Point: Jesus Christ Our Lord was conceived around six months after St. John the Baptist.
Moreover, we know from the same chapter that Our Lady conceived Christ about six months after St. Elizabeth conceived the Baptist. For the Angel says (36), “And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: [37] Because no word shall be impossible with God.”

Now, if the Baptist was conceived in late September, Christ the Lord would have been conceived in late March. Similarly, we can reasonably deduce that the Baptist would be born around late June, nine months after conception.

Third Point: Therefore, Christ Our Lord was conceived on March 25, 2 B.C. and born Dec. 25, 2 B.C.
It is an interesting point that “the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, that is, the month of Kislev” (1 Mac. 4:22) was already held in honor as a Festival of Light. It is the Feast of Dedication in winter mentioned by St. John (10:22). The Hebrew calendar begins in March-April in Nisan, so its ninth month roughly comes to our twelfth month, December, in most years. It is highly fitting that the 25th day of the 12th month on the Christian calendar should have been set apart for Christ, “The Light of the World” (Jn. 8:12), to make His entrance into the world.

The Baptist being born in late June, as shown in the Second Point, Christ Our Lord certainly would have been born around late December. The witness of Tradition, of very early historical Tradition, is clear on this point.

Bp. Theophilus (115–181 A.D.) stated: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”

Saint Hippolytus (170–240 A.D.) wrote: “The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam.”

St. Augustine finally confirms: “But he was born, according to Tradition, upon December the 25th.”

In sum, Our Lord’s date of birth: Dec. 25, 2 B.C. Our Lord’s date of crucifixion: April 3, 33 A.D.

Therefore, the first Easter: April 5, 33 A.D. The 50th day, the first Pentecost: May 24, 33 A.D."
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#50
No, it's not okay at all. But what I want to know is why praying to Santa is bad but observing the pagan winter solstice as Jesus' birthday is good? Why don't we just find a way to gloss over Santa too so we can honor him at Christmas; we cold say he's actually the head wise man or something.
You may be on to something here brother. Let's see. He works 1 day a year. He has developed the world's most efficient delivery system, is famous but hasn't been overcome by his fame, despite everyone knowing his location he has maintained strict privacy, and despite what seems a shoddy diet has retained remarkable health and longevity. He may well be the head Wiseman.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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#51
Other Bible verses touching on the issue:

1. Col 1:3-4: "3We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the Saints" "for all" means those in Heaven and on earth included.
While I agree this can include the saints who had already died, the context does not suggest that at all.


15 "Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the Saints, 16do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers". Same concept. (1) Believe in the Lord Jesus and (2) Love all the Saints. There are some who say "Since I believe the Lord Jesus, I don't need to love any Saint". But the Bible says otherwise.
You're using a strawman argument, and unless you can cite a source, I will disregard it. Most Christians would not say, "I don't need to love any Saint (sic)". We simply don't pray to dead saints and generally pay them little attention. There's a massive difference.


3. Hebrews 12:1 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us"

Who are these "great cloud of witnesses"? ... These are the Old Testament Saints/Heroes of Faith who now are our "Cloud of Witnesses" in Heaven. They clearly are aware therefore of what we do or ask them.
The text doesn't say that. You're adding to Scripture in order to make your case. The text says nothing whatsoever about believers talking to the witnesses or about the witnesses responding to our requests to them.


Well, what is the difference between Prayer and Talking to God, exactly? Isn't Prayer nothing other than talking to God?
I would define prayer as humans on Earth (pre-death) talking to God, certainly not to dead humans.


Further, they were asking for Divine Judgment on the Persecutors of Christians. Then they were given white robes, and told to wait for that Judgment to come. Here's the verse again with the subsequent one: "10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed"

Note that this is all clearly before the Resurrection on the Last Day, and shows the Souls of Saints in Heaven are praying/asking God for various requests, such as Judgment on unbelievers or more specifically on persecutors.
No, not "asking for various requests". They asked God one question, period. They did not ask God to execute judgment; they asked Him when He would. Again, you're adding to Scripture.


So why is it written the prayers of the saints ascend to God through the Angel's hand? If you ask God for something, that is a prayer you are making. If I join with you in asking that for you along with you, then we can say your prayer is ascending to God's Throne through my hand as well. And that imo is what is happening in Heaven. First, the Saints in Heaven pray for us, and then their prayer passes through the Angels and then ascends to/reaches the Throne of God.
The text does not say that the saints in heaven pray for us; that's an extrapolation that I addressed already. You're adding to Scripture yet again.


Please read it again. The Rich Man didn't see Lazarus with Jesus. He saw Lazarus with Abraham.
Correct; I was wrong on this point, having referred to the story from memory.


So we see (1) Abraham is alive (2) he can understand requests made to him (3) and he says yes or no depending on the case. If the Jews did not believe their departed Saints, such as Abraham, could pray for them, Christ would not have said this. But He did.
The rich man did not ask Abraham to pray for him; he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to him, and then to his relatives. Christ was telling the story, but did not appear in the story otherwise. The ability of Abraham to understand and respond to requests is irrelevant. This is a conversation among the dead, not between a still-living person and a dead person, and yes, I do understand that all three are considered still-living; I am making the distinction for simplicity.


At the least, the Books of Maccabees and Tobit are of historical value showing what the Jews before Christ believed.
Yes, but they aren't considered Scripture by Western Christians today, and I won't accept any argument you make from them as having validity equal to Scripture on this or any subject.


But anyway, regardless of the canonical status of Tobit and Maccabees, other undisputable books like Revelation indicate that the Saints in Heaven are alive and pray for us.
That's incorrect. You're trying to make a summary statement on a case you have not established.


Also, Elijah and Moses appeared to the Apostles to show they were alive. As I mentioned, the Sadducees denied this; they denied the Resurrection, and they denied the Saints were alive in Heaven. But neither Christ nor His Apostles ever agreed with them, neither does the true interpretation of the OT Scripture
Please don't try to pin on me the beliefs of the Sadducees; I'm not one, and their position is irrelevant to our discussion.


To interpret Scripture correctly, you need to stick rigorously to the text of Scripture, in context. Don't add to it. Don't make assumptions or extrapolations and then argue that they carry the weight of Scripture. I will shoot down every argument you make that is not based firmly in the text of Scripture, or reasonably well in the context thereof. May the Lord give you right understanding of His word.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#52
Ok. Fair enough, Cameron. Let's pray for one another and God will show us in due time whether the Saints in Heaven pray for us or not. I agree others here on Earth praying for us is a blessing and I think we all agree with that.

In Hebrews 12, it speaks of the spirits of the righteous/just men made perfect: "22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect".

Here's the reference for what I mentioned about the Sadducees: "(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)" (Acts 23:8)

So the Sadducees wrongly said there was no (1) Resurrection, (2) no Angels and (3) no spirits, i.e. no departed Saints living in Heaven. But neither the OT as a whole nor the NT agrees with them. The above verse speaks of the spirits of the righteous which imo is a clear reference to the Saints living, not dead, in Heaven. These are the "Cloud of Witnesses" mentioned earlier in the same chapter in verse 1.

Recall that even in the Gospel, Jesus Christ answered the Sadducees by telling them that, since God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He declared Himself such to Moses, it follows that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living, not dead, in the time of Moses. This is what He meant when He said God is the God of the Living, i.e. Abraham and Isaac etc were living.

"Mat 22:29:
29Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching."

God Bless.
Always blessed when others pray for me. Thanks.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,232
3,575
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#53
I think it is unlikely that Jesus was born on December 25th, but I read an article online about this. The December 25th date was first celebrated when the church was a persecuted minority that was resistant to adopting pagan practices. Two of the early dates for Christmas fell six months after dates for Easter. January 6 was another one. Supposedly, the idea was that Jesus was born the same day of the year that He died, probably arrived at through some kind of theological speculation.

January 6, an alternative date for Christmas being argued for, eventually became a feast day associated with the wise men.
No one knows the exact date of His birth; that's the point. December 25 was chosen precisely because it is a pagan holiday. It's the day the Romans celebrated the winter solstice, or Saturnalia—the birthday of the unconquered sun. The geniuses at the time thought a pagan holiday would make people more eager to be Christians.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,366
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#54
Hi Cameron. Agreed. Jesus Christ is our Best Advocate.

But don't we ask one another to pray for us to Our Lord Jesus? Don't we ask a pastor or our mother or someone close to us to pray for us. In the same way imo, as that Saint John Church link provided by Eli you quoted also mentioned, imo we can ask the Saints or Angels in Heaven to pray for us also.
"imo" as in "in my opinion". Please don't pretend for a second that your opinion carries the authority of Scripture, especially when it is based on additions to Scripture, not on Scripture itself.


In the Gospel, Our Lord indicates we all have Angel Guardians.
Jesus does not call them "guardians".


“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

The Lord says "their Angels". This indicates Almighty God appoints an Angel to pray for, protect and guide every child imo. Thoughts on that and the other passages cited?
No, Jesus does not even hint that angels pray for us.


Also, the Bible indicates the prayers of a righteous man has great power to prevail with God, giving the example of Old Testament Saints like Elijah etc.
Yes... when he was on Earth, his prayers were powerful. Nothing in the text suggests that prayers offered after his death have any bearing, nor that he even prayed after his death. You're adding to Scripture again.


This is another reason the Saints, especially e.g. those who worked miracles in the name of the Lord like Elijah did in the OT, and St. Peter or St. Paul or St. John etc in the NT, are asked to pray for us.
Were asked, by their contemporaries, not are asked by those who came/come later.


Even on earth, their prayers for the people of God were powerful. If so, how much more now from Heaven?
That's complete speculation without a single word of Scripture to support it.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
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#56
No...there is nothing in the Scriptures to support this!

Praying to The Trinity and using the Name of Jesus, is infinitely better!!!!!
i believe it’s sort of a rhetorical op
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,772
623
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#57
You never pray to the dead. Now Saints .. all those that loved believed in Christ are with the Father. You cannot talk to them they do not talk to us. If one presses this and keeps trying you get deceived and can experience things very strange things that are not of God but Satan. Its clearly written we have the sweet holy Spirit then Christ then the Father there is no other. Not written to talk to some saint that has the same Christ within them we do. Nor we pray to Mary to talk to Jesus that is not written. Very unwise to do this. I am not ashamed of the gospel. Not here to offend just truth.
 
Nov 26, 2021
1,125
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India
#58
Dino, briefly, there are 3 possibilities here:

(1) the Saints in Heaven are supposedly "dead", and this is the error of the Sadducees. This error came to Christians from unbelieving Jews who contradicted even the OT, let alone the NT, and were contradicted by Christ and His Apostles. You say you don't hold this opinion, yet you refer to the Saints in Heaven as "dead": "We simply don't pray to dead saints and generally pay them little attention". So which is it? Jesus Christ said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living, not dead.

(2) the Saints in Heaven are indeed alive, not dead, as the Sadducees thought, yet supposedly these living Saints in Heaven do not witness what we are doing here on Earth. This opinion is contradicted by that passage in Hebrews where it says they are a Great Cloud of Witnesses. Therefore, they do witness what is happening. And therefore the true opinion is the third.

(3) The Saints in Heaven are indeed alive/living, not dead, and knowing our needs they also present them to God, just like the Angels do. This is confirmed by many passages in the Book of Revelation. If there is anything certain, from Revelation, it is that Heaven is not a dead place! It is a place full of praise, worship, and prayer. The passages cited show that the Prayers of the Saints are offered like incense before the Throne of God. The context suggests it is the Souls of the Saints, like the Souls of Martyred Saints in Rev 6, and like the 24 Elders in Heaven, whose prayers are being offered. The Angels also offer like incense the prayers of the Saints. This shows there is prayer and intercession going on in Heaven, in the Presence of the Living God, not death!

Again, put these 2 verses together, and you will see that far from supposedly being a sin to ask Saints like either Abraham, or Mary, or Peter or Paul or John, to pray for us, just like we would ask them if we lived when they did, it is a blessing for such Great Saints and righteous men and women of God to pray for us, far more than this pastor or that person praying.

The verses: "to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

And: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail."

The spirits of the righteous are made perfect in Heaven. The prayers of the righteous have great power to prevail to God. Therefore, the prayers of the righteous Saints of God have great power to prevail with Him, and it is a blessing to ask for it.

This was the unanimous opinion of all Christians, East or West, Greek or Latin, before the controversies arose in the 16th century. If you believe differently, fine. In Heaven, we will know who was right. For Catholic and Orthodox Christians, those 7 Biblical Books we have in the Complete Canon are very clear that God's Prophets like Jeremiah, from Heaven, pray for us.

God Bless.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,366
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#59
Dino, briefly, there are 3 possibilities here:

(1) the Saints in Heaven are supposedly "dead", and this is the error of the Sadducees. This error came to Christians from unbelieving Jews who contradicted even the OT, let alone the NT, and were contradicted by Christ and His Apostles. You say you don't hold this opinion, yet you refer to the Saints in Heaven as "dead": "We simply don't pray to dead saints and generally pay them little attention". So which is it? Jesus Christ said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living, not dead.

(2) the Saints in Heaven are indeed alive, not dead, as the Sadducees thought, yet supposedly these living Saints in Heaven do not witness what we are doing here on Earth.

(3) The Saints in Heaven are indeed alive/living, not dead, and knowing our needs they also present them to God, just like the Angels do.
You missed a fourth possibility: The "saints" (those who believed in Christ in this life and have died, and are with Him in the afterlife) witness our lives and don't pray for us. There is no evidence in Scripture that they do.


Again, put these 2 verses together, and you will see that far from supposedly being a sin to ask Saints like either Abraham, or Mary, or Peter or Paul or John, to pray for us, just like we would ask them if we lived when they did, it is a blessing for such Great Saints and righteous men and women of God to pray for us, far more than this pastor or that person praying.
Who said anything about it being a "sin"? I didn't. You exalt people who have died and decry your fellow believers in this life. That's ignorant, foolish, and a mishandling of the relevant Scripture.

You can pretend that praying to "dead" people is worthwhile, though Scripture doesn't support your pretense. I prefer to talk to God directly, and if I feel that additional prayer support is needed, I'll ask righteous men and women whom I know personally. That's what Scripture teaches. It doesn't teach anything about asking "dead" people to pray for you.


The verses: "to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

And: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail."

The spirits of the righteous are made perfect in Heaven. The prayers of the righteous have great power to prevail to God. Therefore, the prayers of the righteous Saints of God have great power to prevail with Him, and it is a blessing to ask for it.
You're making leaps not supported by Scripture. The "righteous" to which those passages refer were righteous prior to their death, which in every case was when they offered prevailing prayers. There is absolutely no record in Scripture of intercession offered by a person who had died (Jesus aside!) making a whit of difference in anything in this life.


This was the unanimous opinion of all Christians, East or West, Greek or Latin, before the controversies arose in the 16th century. If you believe differently, fine. In Heaven, we will know who was right. For Catholic and Orthodox Christians, those 7 Biblical Books we have in the Complete Canon are very clear that God's Prophets like Jeremiah, from Heaven, pray for us.
Irrelevant. Even the quote you provided doesn't support your assertion.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,697
592
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#60
Is Santa really Satan parading like a Spirit of Light at Christmas ------to steal the lime light from the myth that Jesus was born on Christmas Day ----

Lets face it ---when everyone comes to have dinner on Christmas ----Jesus is not the Conversation ---it is all about WHAT SANTA BROUGHT ------Jesus is from the majority peoples mind and lips on Christmas Day ----

Interesting Read ---food for thought

https://www.jesusdaily.org/are-there-hidden-similarities-between-jesus-and-santa-claus-for-a-reason/

Are There Hidden Similarities Between Jesus and Santa Claus for a Reason?

Dr. Aaron Tabor, MD


Someone showed me this list recently and I really was surprised by it.
If you had asked me to name one connection between Jesus and Santa I guess I would have said they both have beards, thats about it. But little did I realize how much they had in common. Is this a coincidence? Regardless of what you believe about ‘ol Kris Kringle, could he have been intentionally designed to mimic Jesus is some ways? We will let you decide.

1. Jesus has white hair like wool in Revelations. (Rev 1:14).
Santa has white hair like wool.

2. Jesus has a beard (Isaiah 50:6).
Santa has a beard.

3. Jesus comes in red apparel (Isaiah 63:1-2).
Santa comes in red apparel.

4. Jesus’ hour of His coming is a mystery (Luke 12:40; Mark 13:33).
Santa’s hour of his coming is a mystery.

5 Jesus comes from the North where He lives (Ezekiel 1:4; Psalm 48:2).
Santa comes from the North where he lives: North Pole.

6. Jesus is a carpenter (Mark 6:3).
Santa is a toy carpenter.

7. Jesus comes as a thief in the night (Matthew 24:43-44).
Santa comes like a thief in the night and even gains entrance to homes down a chimney like thieves have done.

8. Jesus is omnipotent — all powerful (Rev 19:6).
Santa is omnipotent — he delivers all the toys of the world in one night.

9. Jesus is omniscient — knows all (Hebrews 4:13; 1 John 3:20).
Santa is omniscient — knows if every single child has been good or bad for the entire year.

10. Jesus is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10; Ephesians 4:6; John 3:13).
Santa is omnipresent — sees when you are awake or asleep. Has to be everywhere at once.

11. Jesus is ageless and eternal (Rev 1:8; 21:6).
Santa lives forever

12. Jesus lives in men (1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16-17).
Santa lives in the hearts of children.

13. Jesus is a giver of Gifts (Ephesians 4:8).
Santa is a giver of Gifts.

14. We are told to boldly go to the throne of Jesus’ Grace for our needs (Heb 4:16).
Children are asked to approach Santa’s throne to ask for anything they want.

15. Jesus commands children to obey parents (Colossians 3:20).
Santa tells children to obey parents.

16. Jesus wants little children to come to Him (Mark 10:14).
Santa bids children to come to him.

17. Jesus judges (Rom 14:10; Rev 20:2).
Santa judges whether we are naughty or nice.

18. Jesus is called the Everlasting Father (Isa 9:6).
Santa is called Father Christmas.

19. Jesus is the Christ Child (Matt 1:23; Luke 2:11-12).
Santa is also called “Kris Kringle” which means the Christ Child in Austrian and German lore.

20. Jesus is worthy of Prayers and Worship (Rev 5:14; Hebrews 1:6).
Children make wishes to “St.Nick” and have deep love for him.

21. God says, “Ho, ho … (Zechariah 2:6).
Santa says, “Ho, ho, ho …”.

22. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace, the Image of God (Isaiah 9:6; Hebrews 1:3).
Santa is the symbol of World Peace, an image of the Christmas Season.

23. Jesus knows all of our sins (Hebrews 4:13).
Santa knows who is naughty or nice