Joel & Victoria Osteen: This Blew My Mind
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I think corrupted by money is probably a better term you should hear some of Kenneth Copelands very early ministry when he was a rather poor man
a you can actually follow through the years and see his doctrine become corrupted and center itself on “financial prosperity “ and other things also
abut he wasn’t always like he is it was wuote a devolving thing to watch I think many people start out with the right heart and message but later they fall into corruption because of lusts in the world and it shapes thoer doctrine rether than letting Christ and the gospel shape it
a you can actually follow through the years and see his doctrine become corrupted and center itself on “financial prosperity “ and other things also
abut he wasn’t always like he is it was wuote a devolving thing to watch I think many people start out with the right heart and message but later they fall into corruption because of lusts in the world and it shapes thoer doctrine rether than letting Christ and the gospel shape it
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Worshipping God CAN be ALL of that. Or it is sometimes NONE of that.
We worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Singing and raising hands CAN be worshipping God. Its not always.
I think you are OBEYING God when you love other people in your actions. Is worship and obedience the same? I think worship leads to obedience but I don't think they are the same. I suppose a living sacrifice is a form of worship, too. Or it can be.
Corporate worship is important. Maybe not as important as extending that helping hand to others in Christs Name. Probably what James' point ultimately was...
We worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Singing and raising hands CAN be worshipping God. Its not always.
I think you are OBEYING God when you love other people in your actions. Is worship and obedience the same? I think worship leads to obedience but I don't think they are the same. I suppose a living sacrifice is a form of worship, too. Or it can be.
Corporate worship is important. Maybe not as important as extending that helping hand to others in Christs Name. Probably what James' point ultimately was...
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Ues my point is if we aren’t loving other people in our deeds and in truth (the gospel ) we can sing and raise our hands all we want to because worshipping God is when you are living other people at that point singing and raising hands is just an expression of gratitude and supplications to the agod you are worshipping In living your life honoring what he’s commanded us to do in his name
To love Jesus
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:23-24 KJV
This is how to summarize the totality of his commands
“As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”
John 15:9-15 KJV
and this is revelation from one of his apostles to help further explain that
“For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.”
1 John 3:11, 16-19 KJV
what I’m saying is not that singing and raising our hands is bad or not an act of worship I’m saying without Love for one another it becomes meaningless because it’s like going through the motions and. It really having your heart in it love is the key not sayong I love you but loving in actions other people in his name like he did for us
He didn’t just say I love you all he showed it in his actions suffering and dying on the cross we lay down our own selfishness for others that’s the worship he desires
He wants us to lift up clean and loving hands in worship is all I’m saying without love we’re spinning in circles no matter what we do
To love Jesus
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 14:23-24 KJV
This is how to summarize the totality of his commands
“As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”
John 15:9-15 KJV
and this is revelation from one of his apostles to help further explain that
“For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.”
1 John 3:11, 16-19 KJV
what I’m saying is not that singing and raising our hands is bad or not an act of worship I’m saying without Love for one another it becomes meaningless because it’s like going through the motions and. It really having your heart in it love is the key not sayong I love you but loving in actions other people in his name like he did for us
He didn’t just say I love you all he showed it in his actions suffering and dying on the cross we lay down our own selfishness for others that’s the worship he desires
He wants us to lift up clean and loving hands in worship is all I’m saying without love we’re spinning in circles no matter what we do
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We had a new guy come to our men's group. He said back in July he had several bad health issues surrounding his hip and leg, that the Drs. couldn't figure out what was the cause.
He grew up in the Church and kinda came and went, but wanted to rededicate himself to the Lord after he prayed to God about his health issues and was healed.
I said that was fantastic!
Then I asked him what would have happened if he wasn't healed. Several of us let out an audible gasp after hearing his reply. He said:
"Well that would have meant that my faith wasn't strong enough".
That reply, is what is so insidiously dangerous with the health and wealth, name it and claim it, prosperity gospel.
During our conversation he used the same verses that are twisted in Isaiah. And that God wouldn't want any of His children sick or poor.
It was almost like he couldn't grasp that ALL our bodies are going to decay and die. Or that God didn't heal Paul, even though he prayed 3 times for healing. He couldn't get, although God certainly doesn't want anyone to get sick and or die, He can and does use that for His glory and our ultimate good.
We told him of a woman in our Church several yrs ago that died of liver cancer. But for yrs, everywhere she went, every hospital she visited for treatment, every nurse and Dr, heard the Gospel, saw her faith and joy, and experienced Christ through her. Think of the people who could be in Heaven for eternity because this woman had cancer, even though she died from it.
Her husband said when she died she had an incredible glow and smile on her face.
So yes, God can, and does create miraculous healing. But like so much Scripture, people do not take in the WHOLE Counsel of God through His Word, but pluck out verses to fit a flawed and dangerous doctrine that can cause those just hearing the TRUE Good News, to fall away when their prayer isn't answered in the way they think it should.
He grew up in the Church and kinda came and went, but wanted to rededicate himself to the Lord after he prayed to God about his health issues and was healed.
I said that was fantastic!
Then I asked him what would have happened if he wasn't healed. Several of us let out an audible gasp after hearing his reply. He said:
"Well that would have meant that my faith wasn't strong enough".
That reply, is what is so insidiously dangerous with the health and wealth, name it and claim it, prosperity gospel.
During our conversation he used the same verses that are twisted in Isaiah. And that God wouldn't want any of His children sick or poor.
It was almost like he couldn't grasp that ALL our bodies are going to decay and die. Or that God didn't heal Paul, even though he prayed 3 times for healing. He couldn't get, although God certainly doesn't want anyone to get sick and or die, He can and does use that for His glory and our ultimate good.
We told him of a woman in our Church several yrs ago that died of liver cancer. But for yrs, everywhere she went, every hospital she visited for treatment, every nurse and Dr, heard the Gospel, saw her faith and joy, and experienced Christ through her. Think of the people who could be in Heaven for eternity because this woman had cancer, even though she died from it.
Her husband said when she died she had an incredible glow and smile on her face.
So yes, God can, and does create miraculous healing. But like so much Scripture, people do not take in the WHOLE Counsel of God through His Word, but pluck out verses to fit a flawed and dangerous doctrine that can cause those just hearing the TRUE Good News, to fall away when their prayer isn't answered in the way they think it should.
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Worshipping God, lifting up hands and singing praise, is part of the way we are the Workmanship of God. Its part of the way we are changed, from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh with the ABILITY to Love as the Lord Jesus Loves.
All the points you have brought up are important. But you are forgetting the "how". You can't just follow the instructions because you think you know best. You can only follow the instructions if you are given wisdom and knowledge in the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you become much like Martha from Luke 10.
Luke 10:38-42
38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
All the points you have brought up are important. But you are forgetting the "how". You can't just follow the instructions because you think you know best. You can only follow the instructions if you are given wisdom and knowledge in the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise, you become much like Martha from Luke 10.
Luke 10:38-42
38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
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Phil 4: Final Exhortations: Rejoice in the Lord always; again, Rejoice!
4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
1 Thess 5: Rejoice always, pray and give thanks; for this is God's Will:
16Rejoice always, 17pray continually, 18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
1 Thess 5: Rejoice always, pray and give thanks; for this is God's Will:
16Rejoice always, 17pray continually, 18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
L
These folks dont teach the truth in any form. They teach hedonism using christian jargon. The real lot in life of the Christian is the suffering servant. We take up our cross, and lay our lives down, we serve others, we reject the pleasures of this world, we do what is hard, and reject the easy path.
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https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/septemberweb-only/137-41.0.html
"Joel Osteen vs. Rick Warren on Prosperity Gospel
Plus: Hindus attack Catholic school over "séance," court approves Jesus prayers in government meetings, the latest on Iraq Christians, and other stories from online sources around the world.
COMPILED BY TED OLSEN|SEPTEMBER 14, 2006
1. Is this the Prosperity Gospel's hour? Or the hour of its critics?
Time's cover story, "Does God Want You to Be Rich?" makes no reference to the National Baptist Convention, but it's worth noting that the black denomination spent much of its annual convention last week attacking the prosperity gospel. "Black communities are suffering, while this prosperity-pimping gospel is emotionally charging people who are watching their communities just literally dissolve," Friendship West Baptist Church pastor Frederick Haynes told Dallas's WFAA.
That the prosperity gospel has a hold on a segment of American culture is not disputable. Time quotes its own poll numbers:
"Joel Osteen vs. Rick Warren on Prosperity Gospel
Plus: Hindus attack Catholic school over "séance," court approves Jesus prayers in government meetings, the latest on Iraq Christians, and other stories from online sources around the world.
COMPILED BY TED OLSEN|SEPTEMBER 14, 2006
1. Is this the Prosperity Gospel's hour? Or the hour of its critics?
Time's cover story, "Does God Want You to Be Rich?" makes no reference to the National Baptist Convention, but it's worth noting that the black denomination spent much of its annual convention last week attacking the prosperity gospel. "Black communities are suffering, while this prosperity-pimping gospel is emotionally charging people who are watching their communities just literally dissolve," Friendship West Baptist Church pastor Frederick Haynes told Dallas's WFAA.
That the prosperity gospel has a hold on a segment of American culture is not disputable. Time quotes its own poll numbers:
17 percent of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61 percent believed that God wants people to be prosperous. And 31 percent—a far higher percentage than there are Pentecostals in America—agreed that if you give your money to God, God will bless you with more money. … Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three—Joel Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers near Atlanta—are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits.
For Osteen, Prosperity Gospel isn't a pejorative term:"Does God want us to be rich?" he asks. "When I hear that word rich, I think people say, 'Well, he's preaching that everybody's going to be a millionaire.' I don't think that's it." Rather, he explains, "I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don't think I'd say God wants us to be rich. It's all relative, isn't it?"
On the other side is the guy whose church rounds out the "largest four" list:"This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?", [Rick] Warren snorts. "There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?"
It's smart for Time to make Warren the piece's chief critic of the Prosperity Gospel. (One of his favorite lines, "I don't think it is a sin to be rich. I think it is a sin to die rich," doesn't appear.) And it allows Time to make its most astute observation: one of the reasons that the prosperity gospel has been able to grow is because (particularly white, middle-class) evangelical churches have avoided talking about personal finances or social inequality."
L
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/septemberweb-only/137-41.0.html
"Joel Osteen vs. Rick Warren on Prosperity Gospel
Plus: Hindus attack Catholic school over "séance," court approves Jesus prayers in government meetings, the latest on Iraq Christians, and other stories from online sources around the world.
COMPILED BY TED OLSEN|SEPTEMBER 14, 2006
1. Is this the Prosperity Gospel's hour? Or the hour of its critics?
Time's cover story, "Does God Want You to Be Rich?" makes no reference to the National Baptist Convention, but it's worth noting that the black denomination spent much of its annual convention last week attacking the prosperity gospel. "Black communities are suffering, while this prosperity-pimping gospel is emotionally charging people who are watching their communities just literally dissolve," Friendship West Baptist Church pastor Frederick Haynes told Dallas's WFAA.
That the prosperity gospel has a hold on a segment of American culture is not disputable. Time quotes its own poll numbers:
"Joel Osteen vs. Rick Warren on Prosperity Gospel
Plus: Hindus attack Catholic school over "séance," court approves Jesus prayers in government meetings, the latest on Iraq Christians, and other stories from online sources around the world.
COMPILED BY TED OLSEN|SEPTEMBER 14, 2006
1. Is this the Prosperity Gospel's hour? Or the hour of its critics?
Time's cover story, "Does God Want You to Be Rich?" makes no reference to the National Baptist Convention, but it's worth noting that the black denomination spent much of its annual convention last week attacking the prosperity gospel. "Black communities are suffering, while this prosperity-pimping gospel is emotionally charging people who are watching their communities just literally dissolve," Friendship West Baptist Church pastor Frederick Haynes told Dallas's WFAA.
That the prosperity gospel has a hold on a segment of American culture is not disputable. Time quotes its own poll numbers:
17 percent of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61 percent believed that God wants people to be prosperous. And 31 percent—a far higher percentage than there are Pentecostals in America—agreed that if you give your money to God, God will bless you with more money. … Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three—Joel Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers near Atlanta—are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits.
For Osteen, Prosperity Gospel isn't a pejorative term:"Does God want us to be rich?" he asks. "When I hear that word rich, I think people say, 'Well, he's preaching that everybody's going to be a millionaire.' I don't think that's it." Rather, he explains, "I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don't think I'd say God wants us to be rich. It's all relative, isn't it?"
On the other side is the guy whose church rounds out the "largest four" list:"This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?", [Rick] Warren snorts. "There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?"
It's smart for Time to make Warren the piece's chief critic of the Prosperity Gospel. (One of his favorite lines, "I don't think it is a sin to be rich. I think it is a sin to die rich," doesn't appear.) And it allows Time to make its most astute observation: one of the reasons that the prosperity gospel has been able to grow is because (particularly white, middle-class) evangelical churches have avoided talking about personal finances or social inequality."
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Disagree. I love Pastor Rick Warren especially. He's a millionaire yes, but he donates 90% of his earnings to charity. So he not only talks the talk but walks the walk and that matters. how many of his critics practice reverse tithing or donating 90%? It's very difficult and very few can do it, and while indeed everyone doesn't need to do that, it's a mark of his authenticity imo. What we can do, as God blesses us financially, is steadily raise the percentage of giving to churches or charities.
"I’m looking for a second reformation. The first reformation of the church 500 years ago was about beliefs. This one is going to be about behavior. The first one was about creeds. This one is going to be about deeds. It is not going to be about what does the church believe, but about what is the church doing ..
Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we began tithing 10%. Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith: 11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. Every time I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. Every time I give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven ...
On the other hand, though, I said, "What do you want me to do with the influence?"--which was a trickier thing. All of a sudden I start to get invitations. I spoke at Harvard and Cambridge and Oxford... All of a sudden I’m going up on Capitol Hill and talking to guys. Producers in Hollywood are asking me to come up and discuss the book with eight or nine major studio producers.
This wasn’t my plan. My plan was just to pastor Saddleback and train pastors. So I’m going, "God, what am I supposed to do with all of this new influence that you are giving me?" I’m reading through the scriptures trying to find an answer, and I find Psalm 72, which is Solomon’s prayer for more influence.
When you read this prayer it really sounds quite selfish. Solomon is the wisest and wealthiest and most powerful man in the world, because he is the head of the United Kingdom of Israel when it is at the apex of its power. He prays, "God, I want you to make me more influential. I want you to bless me and give me more power. I want you to make me famous. I want you to spread the fame of my name to many nations."
It sounds selfish until you understand he says, "So that the king may support the widow and orphan, care for the poor, defend the defenseless, lift up the fallen, release the captive, help the foreigner, the immigrant."
https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2005/10/rick-warrens-second-reformation.aspx
As for Osteen, I don't listen to him much, but when I do listen, I don't agree with some of the criticisms made of him. For e.g. take this thread, what about Philippians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5 that I quoted? Those Bible verses say to rejoice at all times.
"I’m looking for a second reformation. The first reformation of the church 500 years ago was about beliefs. This one is going to be about behavior. The first one was about creeds. This one is going to be about deeds. It is not going to be about what does the church believe, but about what is the church doing ..
Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we began tithing 10%. Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith: 11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. Every time I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. Every time I give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven ...
On the other hand, though, I said, "What do you want me to do with the influence?"--which was a trickier thing. All of a sudden I start to get invitations. I spoke at Harvard and Cambridge and Oxford... All of a sudden I’m going up on Capitol Hill and talking to guys. Producers in Hollywood are asking me to come up and discuss the book with eight or nine major studio producers.
This wasn’t my plan. My plan was just to pastor Saddleback and train pastors. So I’m going, "God, what am I supposed to do with all of this new influence that you are giving me?" I’m reading through the scriptures trying to find an answer, and I find Psalm 72, which is Solomon’s prayer for more influence.
When you read this prayer it really sounds quite selfish. Solomon is the wisest and wealthiest and most powerful man in the world, because he is the head of the United Kingdom of Israel when it is at the apex of its power. He prays, "God, I want you to make me more influential. I want you to bless me and give me more power. I want you to make me famous. I want you to spread the fame of my name to many nations."
It sounds selfish until you understand he says, "So that the king may support the widow and orphan, care for the poor, defend the defenseless, lift up the fallen, release the captive, help the foreigner, the immigrant."
https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2005/10/rick-warrens-second-reformation.aspx
As for Osteen, I don't listen to him much, but when I do listen, I don't agree with some of the criticisms made of him. For e.g. take this thread, what about Philippians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5 that I quoted? Those Bible verses say to rejoice at all times.
Strongly disagree. What he is saying is that faith must show itself in works, otherwise it is dead. That's what James said too.
"James 2:Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Warren has sufficiently shown his faith by his works. Let those who call him "heretic" etc show their faith by their works.
Pastor Warren is also a leader in Great Commission work, so the idea that he doesn't care about doctrine, Christ or Souls is false on that count too: "Dr. Billy Wilson and Dr. Rick Warren hold ‘2033 Leaders Consultation’
NEW YORK — More than two dozen ministry leaders of significant global networks convened Dec. 5-6 in New York City to combine their experience and insights toward the goal of Great Commission fulfillment within the next decade."
https://religionnews.com/2022/12/08...e-on-fulfilling-the-great-commission-by-2033/
"James 2:Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Warren has sufficiently shown his faith by his works. Let those who call him "heretic" etc show their faith by their works.
Pastor Warren is also a leader in Great Commission work, so the idea that he doesn't care about doctrine, Christ or Souls is false on that count too: "Dr. Billy Wilson and Dr. Rick Warren hold ‘2033 Leaders Consultation’
NEW YORK — More than two dozen ministry leaders of significant global networks convened Dec. 5-6 in New York City to combine their experience and insights toward the goal of Great Commission fulfillment within the next decade."
https://religionnews.com/2022/12/08...e-on-fulfilling-the-great-commission-by-2033/
