The tongues that are...
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Being a public forum is not the issue here, having a discussion with someone who is clueless about God and how the Holy Spirit works in matters of Prayer is.
All I see is pure scientific jargon that amounts absolutely to conjecture and opinion at best.
Only the Word of God sets the Standards for what is and is not pertaining to Spiritual intricacies.
You, are nothing but hot air.
All I see is pure scientific jargon that amounts absolutely to conjecture and opinion at best.
Only the Word of God sets the Standards for what is and is not pertaining to Spiritual intricacies.
You, are nothing but hot air.
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Interesting post. As in other's experiences, you have said not to use them, only the word of God. Yet you use your personal experience to validate your opinion of the word of God.
I find that very odd; I am being polite. In addition, you are taking out of context the text and passages you used mingled with your personal experience. Can you address why you feel it is ok for your personal opinion to be used and others can't?
Thank you
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Brethren,
Some disagree because they don't know any better.
Some disagree because they want to stoke your blood pressure.
Some disagree because they are sent by the enemy.
As the old saying in preacher circles, "some are called, some are sent & some just got up and went."
Well, that happens on the enemiy's side too.
Regardless of which they are, all of them will strive to destroy a christian's witness & reputation. That's why some of the nicest members of CC get banned from time to time. They hammer you till you crack.
Brethren, I would that you be strong & of a good courage like Moses told Joshua, but that you also be wise and pick your discussions carefully.
Don't be set up for a fall.
Take a coffee break & think about it.
Some disagree because they don't know any better.
Some disagree because they want to stoke your blood pressure.
Some disagree because they are sent by the enemy.
As the old saying in preacher circles, "some are called, some are sent & some just got up and went."
Well, that happens on the enemiy's side too.
Regardless of which they are, all of them will strive to destroy a christian's witness & reputation. That's why some of the nicest members of CC get banned from time to time. They hammer you till you crack.
Brethren, I would that you be strong & of a good courage like Moses told Joshua, but that you also be wise and pick your discussions carefully.
Don't be set up for a fall.
Take a coffee break & think about it. -
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Look at this quote from a 1910 book by Mrs Alma White: "The means has been furnished for scores and hundreds to go to foreign lands to preach in what they supposed was the native tongue of the Hindus, Chinese and every other nationality. But to their surprise they find that their “tongues” are of no use to them, that they cannot be understood at all. Why did not the Holy Spirit reveal this to them before they started? John 16:13 says, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.” Those whom the “Tongues” people have sent to foreign lands, if they have not had the means to return, had to settle down and learn the language of the natives. Their great schemes of evangelizing the heathen proved to be air-castles or floating bubbles that burst when they reached their destination. The Holy Spirit is God, and we certainly credit Him with having intelligence superior to this."
It seems like modern tongues started out like early new testament tongues but had to be repurposed/rebranded to the angelic hyperbole when the rubber met the road. Certainly Mrs Alma White is no person to look to for doctrine but her book does give valuable insight into the history of the modern tongues movement.
It seems like modern tongues started out like early new testament tongues but had to be repurposed/rebranded to the angelic hyperbole when the rubber met the road. Certainly Mrs Alma White is no person to look to for doctrine but her book does give valuable insight into the history of the modern tongues movement.
Yes, exactly -
If the history of the Pentecost movement is examined, one fact is very clear: at some point, between 1906 and 1907, the Pentecostal church was compelled to re-examine the narrative of Scripture with respect to “tongues”. The reason for this re-examination was that it quickly became embarrassingly obvious that their original supposition, and fervent belief in tongues as xenoglossy, certainly wasn’t what they were producing.
Not much has been recorded about the failure of these missions as described by Mrs. White in your post – you kind of have to hunt it down.
This forced a serious theological dilemma — As a whole, either the Pentecostal movement would have to admit it was wrong about “tongues”, or the modern experience needed to be completely redefined. It seems the latter option was chosen.
One would think it impossible to study the history of Pentecostalism without, at the very least, a cursory look at this ‘tongues issue’. The entire issue seems to have been conveniently ‘forgotten about’, and for all intents and purposes, swept under the rug. Very few, indeed if any, Pentecostals are taught about this issue, and in my experience, most aren’t even aware that it ever existed in the first place. One is left to deduce that it represents a chapter in the history of the early Pentecostal church that many would like to just forget.
In redefining “tongues”, Pentecostals looked to primary and secondary source works for an alternative explanation. It is during this time that, that (mainly) five German scholars promoted a fresh new approach to Biblical interpretation that purposely tried to avoid the trappings of traditional and enforced interpretations of Biblical texts, collectively known as “Higher Criticism”. Part of this tradition was examining “tongues” as ecstatic utterance, rather than the supposed xenoglossy as understood by mainstream Christianity for centuries.
As a quick aside, an important thing to note is that, prior to 1879, the term ‘glossolalia’ did not exist – it is a word coined by English theologian, Frederick Farrar (Dean of Canterbury) in 1879 in one of his publications.
The Pentecostal solution to the issue was an adaptation from the works of Farrar, Schaff and a few others. These ideas were further ‘tweaked’ to more adequately fit their new notion of tongues. From this, the concept of “prayer language” as an explanation for the modern phenomenon of tongues-speech was formed.
Over a short period of time, a Pentecostal apologetic was built. The emergence of the term “utterance” was strongly emphasized - it kept the definition ambiguous as it allowed for a variety of definitions beyond real, rational language, it was something sort of related to language, and could be defended more easily. “Utterance” fit much better in the Pentecostal paradigm and did not require empirical evidence. ‘Natural Praise’ and ‘adoration’ became a feature of ‘tongues’, and then ‘heavenly’ or ‘prayer language’ further broadened the definition. The term ‘glossolalia’ was transferred in from academia and was given a Pentecostal definition. In short, the tongues doctrine simply shifted into new semantics without any explanation. Xenoglossy one day, “prayer language” the next.
The resulting implicit theology however was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the modern “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture. A way to legitimize and justify the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing’ it in the Bible. The problem with this however, was an obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues. Call it what you will, but for this group of Christians, the result was a virtual re-definition of scripture with respect to the understanding and justification of modern “tongues”; a re-interpretation of select Biblical texts to fit the modern practice/connotation of what ”tongues” was/is perceived to be.
If the history of the Pentecost movement is examined, one fact is very clear: at some point, between 1906 and 1907, the Pentecostal church was compelled to re-examine the narrative of Scripture with respect to “tongues”. The reason for this re-examination was that it quickly became embarrassingly obvious that their original supposition, and fervent belief in tongues as xenoglossy, certainly wasn’t what they were producing.
Not much has been recorded about the failure of these missions as described by Mrs. White in your post – you kind of have to hunt it down.
This forced a serious theological dilemma — As a whole, either the Pentecostal movement would have to admit it was wrong about “tongues”, or the modern experience needed to be completely redefined. It seems the latter option was chosen.
One would think it impossible to study the history of Pentecostalism without, at the very least, a cursory look at this ‘tongues issue’. The entire issue seems to have been conveniently ‘forgotten about’, and for all intents and purposes, swept under the rug. Very few, indeed if any, Pentecostals are taught about this issue, and in my experience, most aren’t even aware that it ever existed in the first place. One is left to deduce that it represents a chapter in the history of the early Pentecostal church that many would like to just forget.
In redefining “tongues”, Pentecostals looked to primary and secondary source works for an alternative explanation. It is during this time that, that (mainly) five German scholars promoted a fresh new approach to Biblical interpretation that purposely tried to avoid the trappings of traditional and enforced interpretations of Biblical texts, collectively known as “Higher Criticism”. Part of this tradition was examining “tongues” as ecstatic utterance, rather than the supposed xenoglossy as understood by mainstream Christianity for centuries.
As a quick aside, an important thing to note is that, prior to 1879, the term ‘glossolalia’ did not exist – it is a word coined by English theologian, Frederick Farrar (Dean of Canterbury) in 1879 in one of his publications.
The Pentecostal solution to the issue was an adaptation from the works of Farrar, Schaff and a few others. These ideas were further ‘tweaked’ to more adequately fit their new notion of tongues. From this, the concept of “prayer language” as an explanation for the modern phenomenon of tongues-speech was formed.
Over a short period of time, a Pentecostal apologetic was built. The emergence of the term “utterance” was strongly emphasized - it kept the definition ambiguous as it allowed for a variety of definitions beyond real, rational language, it was something sort of related to language, and could be defended more easily. “Utterance” fit much better in the Pentecostal paradigm and did not require empirical evidence. ‘Natural Praise’ and ‘adoration’ became a feature of ‘tongues’, and then ‘heavenly’ or ‘prayer language’ further broadened the definition. The term ‘glossolalia’ was transferred in from academia and was given a Pentecostal definition. In short, the tongues doctrine simply shifted into new semantics without any explanation. Xenoglossy one day, “prayer language” the next.
The resulting implicit theology however was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the modern “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture. A way to legitimize and justify the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing’ it in the Bible. The problem with this however, was an obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues. Call it what you will, but for this group of Christians, the result was a virtual re-definition of scripture with respect to the understanding and justification of modern “tongues”; a re-interpretation of select Biblical texts to fit the modern practice/connotation of what ”tongues” was/is perceived to be.
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Alma Bridwell White (June 16, 1862 – June 26, 1946) was the founder and a bishop of the Pillar of Fire Church.[1][2][3] In 1918, she became the first woman bishop of Pillar of Fire in the United States.[2][4] She was a proponent of feminism. She also associated herself with the Ku Klux Klan and was involved in anti-Catholicism, antisemitism, anti-Pentecostalism, racism, and hostility to immigrants.[5] By the time of her death at age 84, she had expanded the sect to "4,000 followers, 61 churches, seven schools, ten periodicals and two broadcasting stations."[4]
...and that's just the opening statement, lol.
...and that's just the opening statement, lol.
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You're 100% right. Alma White may have been wrong about a lot of things, but as far as tongues she's spot on.
Charles Fox Parham, in 1901, believed tongues to be real languages that could be used for evangelizing. But after sending out missionaries into the field with nothing more than "tongues" to communicate the gospel, they had a rude awakening when no one could understand a thing they said. It was at this point that the babble that was being reported at the Azusa street revival (1906) became the new standard and "heavenly language" was born. It's pretty difficult to say someone isn't speaking in tongues when you have no idea what they're saying and they aren't meant to be understood.
Charles Fox Parham, in 1901, believed tongues to be real languages that could be used for evangelizing. But after sending out missionaries into the field with nothing more than "tongues" to communicate the gospel, they had a rude awakening when no one could understand a thing they said. It was at this point that the babble that was being reported at the Azusa street revival (1906) became the new standard and "heavenly language" was born. It's pretty difficult to say someone isn't speaking in tongues when you have no idea what they're saying and they aren't meant to be understood.
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FYI the Penacostel Churches have done greater evangelism in other nations than any other Christian fellowship or assembly. The Spirit of the Lord was with them even if C. Parham was not fully correct in his understanding. He was very much right Jesus being the only answer and way of Salvation. God honored the work they did.
That is still a testimony of the many Churches that are still there in other nations found by God through Pentacostel Believers. From a Christ-Centered program started by Pentecostals
1. Teen Challenge
2. VictoryOutreach
3. Second Chance
4. Celebrate recovery
All Christ-Centered. All from a Pentacostel fellowship. Over 70 % success rate, no other government program comes close.
Attack those who you could never even measure up to by the work they did for the Lord in one month that you have yet to do in a life time.
That is still a testimony of the many Churches that are still there in other nations found by God through Pentacostel Believers. From a Christ-Centered program started by Pentecostals
1. Teen Challenge
2. VictoryOutreach
3. Second Chance
4. Celebrate recovery
All Christ-Centered. All from a Pentacostel fellowship. Over 70 % success rate, no other government program comes close.
Attack those who you could never even measure up to by the work they did for the Lord in one month that you have yet to do in a life time.
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Yes he caused them
“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
….And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”
Genesis 11:1, 6-9 KJV
He caused the different tongues to confound others so men couldn’t understand each other colluding against him and then he gave this practical gift with the gospel of the kingdom
“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
…And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judæa, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”
Acts 2:3-4, 7-11 KJV
God drove languages apart because of mans sin and collusion against him at Babel
God brings language back together to announce the words of God for salvstion from sin
at he gift of tongues is practical for preaching the gospel the spirit gave them the gift to be able to speak in other languages to the people in order that this could happen
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
sin order for all people to be able to hear the gospel of the kingdom it’s a practical need that tongues was given to communicate in other languages of those nations of the earth
The spirit wasn’t speaking unknown languages but speaking as you say in every known language to reach the people of earth with the message of the gospel
spoeitual gifts are always for the furthering and spreading of the kingdom
“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
….And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”
Genesis 11:1, 6-9 KJV
He caused the different tongues to confound others so men couldn’t understand each other colluding against him and then he gave this practical gift with the gospel of the kingdom
“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
…And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judæa, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”
Acts 2:3-4, 7-11 KJV
God drove languages apart because of mans sin and collusion against him at Babel
God brings language back together to announce the words of God for salvstion from sin
at he gift of tongues is practical for preaching the gospel the spirit gave them the gift to be able to speak in other languages to the people in order that this could happen
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
sin order for all people to be able to hear the gospel of the kingdom it’s a practical need that tongues was given to communicate in other languages of those nations of the earth
The spirit wasn’t speaking unknown languages but speaking as you say in every known language to reach the people of earth with the message of the gospel
spoeitual gifts are always for the furthering and spreading of the kingdom
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