Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

Babies aren't born with awareness. And therefore are not born believing Christ. Therefore, they are born in condemnation.

If they continue in this condemnation and don't come to saving Faith they end up in Romans 1:18-20

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The verse you quoted is out of context. If we read it without context this verse says that all people are saved, which is universalism, and that isn’t accurate, but even if it was it would support my point.

Here’s another verse that proves people aren’t born condemned:

John 9
41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

 

[Runningman]

You're looking for a problem where none exists. I'm not not going to get entangled in a pointless exchange on this otherwise lovely day. Later.

Right, exactly. Some people ask questions, not really seeking knowledge and wisdom about the scriptures, but just as a pretense to argue, catch you in a contradiction, or a mistake of some sort.

They did the same thing to Jesus all the time, except they wanted a reason to stone Him. Fortunately this is just a message board. I’d hate to see what some would do otherwise.

Good job not taking their bait and not giving them a foothold.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Were the Israelites that stumbled going to heaven if they died broken off from Jesus?

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. .

Romans 11:19-20
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.


And can what happened to them happen to the gentiles that were already grafted in?

Romans 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either

That is why it matters.

They were cut off

who were they?
the nation, the same people God kept as a remnant. So yes, some of the nation although cut off, will get to heaven

you can’t attach yourself to the vine. Stop being so proud to think you can pull yourself out of Gods hands, your nothing, non of us are

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

They are already condemned on the condition they didn’t believe in Jesus. This is clear it’s talking about rejecting Jesus, not being ignorant of Jesus, such as a baby for example.

The New Testament talks about those who reject Christ coming under judgement, not those who are ignorant of Christ.

Again, people aren’t born under condemnation.

John 3
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Oh boy, you will do anything to ignore truth

they are dead in adam, and will remain dead until they repent and come to faith

if they fail to repent, they will remain in a dead state. Because they died in unbelief

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Romans 11 is speaking of individual Gentiles. Having supposedly read it, I’m surprised you missed this. For example, if you become an unbeliever that doesn’t effect my status as a branch grafted in.

Here’s a quote from Romans 11:

Romans 11
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

John 15
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Wrong

romans 11 is speaking of Israel vs the gentile church

dont go to John 15 for contect of Roman’s 11. Read Roman’s 11

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You’re saying that individual Jews can’t come to Christ now and be grafted in? Your interpretation runs counter to the NT.

I did? When?

Isreal has a remnant, who is the remnant. Saved Jews.

romans 11 proves that the cut off nation of Isreal still has many believers

 

[HeIsHere]

And worthless faith cannot save in any way, lest it have some worth, no?

Do you understand that it is that saving faith if placed in someone, Jesus is the object of our faith?

Do you understand that "faith" in scripture can also refer to a body of beliefs in scripture, pay attention to the context.

 

[Runningman]

Wrong

romans 11 is speaking of Israel vs the gentile church

dont go to John 15 for contect of Roman’s 11. Read Roman’s 11

Sorry but you're completely missing Paul's point in Romans 11 and Jesus' point in John 15.

Romans 11
1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:

Here is Paul's point below:

11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.
14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

Israel, as a nation or as a ethnic group, has not been cut off or rejected by God. Individuals can come to Christ on an individual basis which is true for every person of every nation or group.

I think I see where you are going off track. Are you a dispensationalist?

 

[HeIsHere]

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

This is not judgement about who will enter heaven.

 

[Runningman]

Oh boy, you will do anything to ignore truth

they are dead in adam, and will remain dead until they repent and come to faith

if they fail to repent, they will remain in a dead state. Because they died in unbelief

The sins of Adam and Eve aren't upon currently people. I never ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; that's their sin. What Paul is referring to in Romans 5 is the punishment mankind received because of them and the cursed earth. You can read about that in Genesis.

The reason many were made sinners is because of the introduction of the Law, not "original sin." Please study these things before talking.

Romans 5
18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

They were cut off

who were they?
the nation, the same people God kept as a remnant. So yes, some of the nation although cut off, will get to heaven

you can’t attach yourself to the vine. Stop being so proud to think you can pull yourself out of Gods hands, your nothing, non of us are

In what way were the elect cut off?

For example
Those who were not the elect

Romans 11:7-10
What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see,

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.”

And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.”

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

Do you understand that it is that saving faith if placed in someone, Jesus is the object of our faith?

Do you understand that "faith" in scripture can also refer to a body of beliefs in scripture, pay attention to the context.

This is the first time "faith" is mentioned in James 2

James 2:1
My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism.


That seems perfectly apt for the theme of faith in the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ being worthless without deeds such as (in bold)

James 2:16
If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that?


What context necessitates that James is not talking about faith in the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ, if I understand you correctly?

 

[HeIsHere]

This is the first time "faith" is mentioned in James 2

James 2:1
My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism.


That seems perfectly apt for the theme of faith in the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ being worthless without deeds such as (in bold)

James 2:16
If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that?


What context necessitates that James is not talking about faith in the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ, if I understand you correctly?

Actually it is not. These audience to whom James is writing is saved.

That means they have already believed upon Christ Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

 

[Grandpa]

The verse you quoted is out of context. If we read it without context this verse says that all people are saved, which is universalism, and that isn’t accurate, but even if it was it would support my point.

Here’s another verse that proves people aren’t born condemned:

John 9
41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

The verse I quoted is out of context.

But the one you picked is in perfect context...

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Let's all just encourage one another to walk in the Light.

Amen.

Edit. The verse on walking in the Light in 1 Jn 1:

"Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

Actually it is not. These audience to whom James is writing is saved.

That means they have already believed upon Christ Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

Then he'd be telling those that believed upon Christ Jesus that their faith in Him (in bold)

James 2:20
O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?


There is no reason "faith" there cannot mean

James 2:1
My brothers, as you hold out your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, do not show favoritism.



further, if James believes there is any good in having faith but having no deeds, then it is unnecessary to ask

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sorry but you're completely missing Paul's point in Romans 11 and Jesus' point in John 15.

Romans 11
1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:

Here is Paul's point below:

11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.
14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

Israel, as a nation or as a ethnic group, has not been cut off or rejected by God. Individuals can come to Christ on an individual basis which is true for every person of every nation or group.

I think I see where you are going off track. Are you a dispensationalist?

No, You are missing the point

romans 9 - 11 is paul speaking about how the gentiles would be given Gods plan. and they would take control of it andf send it out. while Isreal as a nation who had it in the OT is cut off. But that one day, All Israel (the nation) will be saved, when they as a nation repent.

And yes, in AD 70 Israel as a nation was cut off..

I see where you are going off track. your a legalist.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The sins of Adam and Eve aren't upon currently people. I never ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; that's their sin. What Paul is referring to in Romans 5 is the punishment mankind received because of them and the cursed earth. You can read about that in Genesis.

The reason many were made sinners is because of the introduction of the Law, not "original sin." Please study these things before talking.

Romans 5
18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

thats funny how the very passage you posted proves you wrong.

of course you never ate from the tree. But adams sin passed to you. so you could be in adam.. in adall die.. all includes you.

even so in christ, all may be made alive.

unless your in christ. your still dead..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

In what way were the elect cut off?

For example
Those who were not the elect

Romans 11:7-10
What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see,

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.”

And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,

a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.”

romans 11: 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

who are they???

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Actually it is not. These audience to whom James is writing is saved.

That means they have already believed upon Christ Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

this is not true.. he is writting to jews. not all of them are saved, that is why he is warning them