And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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In clearer English, that verse is saying to have eternal life you must know God as the only true God and Jesus as the Messiah God sent. This isn't saying that just knowing who God is the definition of eternal life.
Eternal life is a literal unending existence forever in the presence of God. Perishing is death. This is consistent through the old and new testament.
Eternal life is a literal unending existence forever in the presence of God. Perishing is death. This is consistent through the old and new testament.
Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
According to Jesus, people who are not saved will perish.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Paul:
2 Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
According to Jesus, people who are not saved will perish.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Paul:
2 Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
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WB: You don't know what is meant by 'eternal torture'?
You know what is meant by 'eternal'?
Everlasting life, life without end. Do you understand that explanation and agree with it?
You don't know what is meant by 'torture'?
Inflicting severe pain on someone (for punishment).Do you understand and agree with that explanation?
Eternal torture: to inflict severe punishment on someone as a punishment in a life without end.
So, according to your 'argument' - which isn't actually qualify as an argument at all and is only an assertion of your view - our loving forgiving merciful God who gave his creation freewill will torture unbelievers in a Lake of Fire for eternity?
You know what is meant by 'eternal'?
Everlasting life, life without end. Do you understand that explanation and agree with it?
You don't know what is meant by 'torture'?
Inflicting severe pain on someone (for punishment).Do you understand and agree with that explanation?
Eternal torture: to inflict severe punishment on someone as a punishment in a life without end.
So, according to your 'argument' - which isn't actually qualify as an argument at all and is only an assertion of your view - our loving forgiving merciful God who gave his creation freewill will torture unbelievers in a Lake of Fire for eternity?
WB: Unbelievers will according to Scripture be sent to 'hell' ....but it's important to know precisely what 'hell' is and what it is not.
To get to the Truth of the matter the starting point is to get a precisely accurate translation of the original Hebrew words 'Sheol' and the Greek words 'hades' and 'gehenna' because some Bibles use a translated word into English to apply to ALL i.e. the Hebrew words and Greek interchangeably.
So, a question for you. Is Sheol the same as Hades and Hell and Gehenna? Do please provide something in the way of hard facts and evidence to support whatever view you present in a response. Thanks
To get to the Truth of the matter the starting point is to get a precisely accurate translation of the original Hebrew words 'Sheol' and the Greek words 'hades' and 'gehenna' because some Bibles use a translated word into English to apply to ALL i.e. the Hebrew words and Greek interchangeably.
So, a question for you. Is Sheol the same as Hades and Hell and Gehenna? Do please provide something in the way of hard facts and evidence to support whatever view you present in a response. Thanks
A proper argument involves stating a proposition backed with facts, evidence, and references to the aforementioned points. The parties involved enter into such discussions prepared to have their proposition challenged by legitimate questions for the purpose of arriving at the truth.
In avoiding answering legitimate questions and issuing an unreasonable command you are not a person who is interested in engaging in proper arguments and so your Mission (whatever it may be) will be Impossible.
In avoiding answering legitimate questions and issuing an unreasonable command you are not a person who is interested in engaging in proper arguments and so your Mission (whatever it may be) will be Impossible.
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What I have noticed in my various Bible discussion endeavors is that people probably know a few verses that relate to something they think they know all about, but when new verses are introduced, that add more info, it's like throwing a wrench into their gears. There's probably three or four phases to the human response to this, based on my observations.
1. Disagreement, arguing
2. Desperation
3. Rejection, denial, self-deception, fleeing
4.Personal attacks on character, lies, slander, etc.
5. Claiming victim status
6. Acceptance... possibly years later.
This is all motivated by self-preservation of the ego. The ego wants to defend it's and is willing to construct alternative realities justify the existence of itself.
These phases do not necessarily occur on a 2D timeline, but more like a 3D gradient. Nor am I implying that they cannot occur simultaneously, or repeat themselves, but this is a general outline, imo.
1. Disagreement, arguing
2. Desperation
3. Rejection, denial, self-deception, fleeing
4.Personal attacks on character, lies, slander, etc.
5. Claiming victim status
6. Acceptance... possibly years later.
This is all motivated by self-preservation of the ego. The ego wants to defend it's and is willing to construct alternative realities justify the existence of itself.
These phases do not necessarily occur on a 2D timeline, but more like a 3D gradient. Nor am I implying that they cannot occur simultaneously, or repeat themselves, but this is a general outline, imo.
The mistake is taking things to logical conclusions according to human logic (whether inspired by scripture or not)
Yes there is eternal life and perfection
But the mechanism that deals with imperfection is in itself perfect and if we knew its full operation we could by definition think of nothing better, or more just or more loving
Thus, when we are faced with the rudimentary and apparent harshness of scriptural interpretations - it is man's oversimplification we are witnessing
This does not impute harshness and unlovingness to God - we merely see man's interpretations of things giving that effect
Now, some may wish to claim that God is harsh and punishing. That is their choice and it can of course be backed by scripture
For those that wish to claim that God is not like that, this is also their choice and also can be backed by scripture
The conclusion is - we have free will to believe what God's nature actually is like
It is NOT defined purely by scripture - it is our own choice via interpretation
We are not defining God - but God is letting himself be definable by us - to see what we will make of him
So, woe to the pharisee's who make God out to be something that he is not, takes on a whole new meaning
God is a big deal - not subject to our whims or rationalisations
Perfect orthodoxy and fidelity to God - there are no shortcuts or easy fixes - the study of God is the most fascinating and rewarding thing to embark on - but mostly we will be let down by other humans - we will be disappointed - the friends we thought we had turn out to make us feel lonely and isolated, even worse than those that never seek God. But God remains truthful the only one we can rely on
Yes there is eternal life and perfection
But the mechanism that deals with imperfection is in itself perfect and if we knew its full operation we could by definition think of nothing better, or more just or more loving
Thus, when we are faced with the rudimentary and apparent harshness of scriptural interpretations - it is man's oversimplification we are witnessing
This does not impute harshness and unlovingness to God - we merely see man's interpretations of things giving that effect
Now, some may wish to claim that God is harsh and punishing. That is their choice and it can of course be backed by scripture
For those that wish to claim that God is not like that, this is also their choice and also can be backed by scripture
The conclusion is - we have free will to believe what God's nature actually is like
It is NOT defined purely by scripture - it is our own choice via interpretation
We are not defining God - but God is letting himself be definable by us - to see what we will make of him
So, woe to the pharisee's who make God out to be something that he is not, takes on a whole new meaning
God is a big deal - not subject to our whims or rationalisations
Perfect orthodoxy and fidelity to God - there are no shortcuts or easy fixes - the study of God is the most fascinating and rewarding thing to embark on - but mostly we will be let down by other humans - we will be disappointed - the friends we thought we had turn out to make us feel lonely and isolated, even worse than those that never seek God. But God remains truthful the only one we can rely on
I'd say you've provided a pretty good analysis of the situation and readily confess in my atheist days I would've been a perfect fit in the 'self-preservation of ego' category. It's understandable. As a carnal man with the mind only on self and self-actualization it's natural in that condition to defend one's views. And even as a Christian in the process of sanctification, I've had the default to act defensively and then to go on the offensive....but with the passing of time and maturing and with the focus on the Truth and getting to know God that condition becomes less...although I think none of us - and certainly not me - will achieve a state of non-ego this side of the Coming Kingdom of Christ.
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