And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Komentaja]

I think it's quite simple:
If God is love, according to scripture, then the literalist concept of hell is alien to that, and an aberration. Because it is not love
Thus, those who believe in such a literalist idea are forced to re-interpret what love is - a fools errand!
It's interesting that they would rather sacrifice love and that is easier for them to do, point noted - they have missed the point

Instead, to conceive that divine justice in in accordance with love, is enough...that is all we need to know
Literal understandings of scripture, while appearing correct could be all wrong - and they were the authors best guess
We are guided by a Spirit that gives us better information

Love has destroyed the western world. You are probably part of the movement.

You use the word "love" to mean tolerance for evil, no justice and no consequences for evil on judgment day.

Try defining love in the biblical way, not what society paints as love, garbage like tolerance, being "nice" and "accepting" of everything and everyone. That is NOT love.

The same God who is "love" is also the one who killed the entire earth except for Noah and his family.

Try again.

 

[NilsForChrist]

It does rather sound like you want those who reject God to suffer eternal torture in the Lake of Fire. Is that really just?

Is it just for him to cease to exist?

 

[CS1]

It does rather sound like you want those who reject God to suffer eternal torture in the Lake of Fire. Is that really just? Even IF a sinner lived for, say, 1,000 years and committed sins wilfully, is it justice to burn him for eternity?


Now that's all very interesting but I - and I dare say others following this thread - am looking for something more solid than speculative interpretations of Sheol, Hades, Hell, Gehenna. What I'm looking for - and given that you seem convince that your interpretation is correct and you therefore ought to be able to explain fully - is two things.

Firstly, you need to give Scriptural-based arguments for your interpretation.

Secondly, those arguments need to be supported by precisely accurate correct interpretations of the original meaning of the words Sheol Hades, Hell, Gehenna that are agreed upon by Biblical scholars.

Ok, I can agree with that. To a point. Any time one says "that are agreed upon by Biblical scholars. "

really means the ones they agree with because it holds to other personal acceptance of the text.

Authorial intent, with Context within the sentence, Verse, paragraph, chapter, Book, and the whole bible


Sheol as a normative in both the Old and New Testament means the Grave or a location after a death we must keep the text in the context and USE what fits best.

In Deuteronomy 32:22

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."


who is speaking and what is being said? Well, we must look above and below the text and ask ;

who is speaking? who is the text speaking to? why was it SAID?

This is known as the Song of Moses and verse 32 is an action done by God of Judgement will start at 19


19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;(gentiles) I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

as you continue the word Hell is God sending his people to a place of exile and the word hell here is figuratively used not the literal place. which would happen and it would be a living Hell for them. It was also a Prophetic word of the coming Church who is supposed to provoke the people of God.

One example Now I will bring part two for you and where hell is the grave and a real place Parts two and three coming soon for you.

 

[CS1]

Ok, I can agree with that. To a point. Any time one says "that are agreed upon by Biblical scholars. "

really means the ones they agree with because it holds to other personal acceptance of the text.

Authorial intent, with Context within the sentence, Verse, paragraph, chapter, Book, and the whole bible


Sheol as a normative in both the Old and New Testament means the Grave or a location after a death we must keep the text in the context and USE what fits best.

In Deuteronomy 32:22

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."


who is speaking and what is being said? Well, we must look above and below the text and ask ;

who is speaking? who is the text speaking to? why was it SAID?

This is known as the Song of Moses and verse 32 is an action done by God of Judgement will start at 19


19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;(gentiles) I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

as you continue the word Hell is God sending his people to a place of exile and the word hell here is figuratively used not the literal place. which would happen and it would be a living Hell for them. It was also a Prophetic word of the coming Church which is supposed to provoke the people of God.

One example Now I will bring part two for you and where hell is the grave and a real place Parts two and three coming soon for you.

Part two:

David’s Psalm of Deliverance​

​

2 Samuel 22



David is speaking with the Lord and it is a song of God's deliverance from King Saul. As verse 1 says.



2. And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; 3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. 5 When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid; 6



The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

David is talking about Fear



7. In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.

David’s prayer was answered.

Hell used by David here seems to be

In the context of the OT designation for the abode of the dead

When he prayed this David, Never saw it.

The word Hell here is used to represent David’s praise to God for keeping him safe at a time his life was in danger by King Saul.

 

[CS1]

Part two:

David’s Psalm of Deliverance​

​

2 Samuel 22



David is speaking with the Lord and it is a song of God's deliverance from King Saul. As verse 1 says.



2. And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; 3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. 5 When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid; 6



The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

David is talking about Fear



7. In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.

David’s prayer was answered.

Hell used by David here seems to be

In the context of the OT designation for the abode of the dead

When he prayed this David, Never saw it.

The word Hell here is used to represent David’s praise to God for keeping him safe at a time his life was in danger by King Saul.

Part three:

 

[WillB]

Is it just for him to cease to exist?

I will respond by saying -stating the obvious - God is the life-giver. And as the Sovereign He has the right to take life.

To address your specific point. Is it just to torture a man for eternity for sins committed in a lifespan of even 1000 years? I think not. But there is no injustice in taking away a man's life if he wilfully and stubbornly refuses to recognize and submit to the Authority of The Life giver and especially so as a wifull stubborn denier will not be able to conduct himself according to the Spirit and will be totally carnal and an evil influence and of danger to those who have submitted their will to God.

 

[CS1]

part three
Psalms 9​

As we read this Psalm there are many word that we must look at to understand the word hell here which is translated = Sheol means or speaking about



This Psalm is a praise and thanksgiving to God for HIS justice on nations and people who are against the people of God or against God.



We read starting at verse 3



3. When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

4. For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.

5. Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

6. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

7. But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.

8. And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

9. The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

10. And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 11. Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings. 12. When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. 13. Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death: 14. That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation. 15. The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.

16. The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.



17. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. 18. For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.



The text is speaking of a past event of Gods judgement on people and nations yet it also speaks on the coming eternal judgment there are words used in ths PS to describe the place of hell

• verse 15 “Pit”= shakh'-ath can mean also the pit of hell
• snare and net speak of a judgment also a scheme that will not work on the people of God but will entrap those who made it. Hell here can be said to be literal and figuratively and that would be correct on within the context of this Ps.

 

[CS1]

I will respond by saying -stating the obvious - God is the life-giver. And as the Sovereign He has the right to take life.

To address your specific point. Is it just to torture a man for eternity for sins committed in a lifespan of even 1000 years? I think not. But there is no injustice in taking away a man's life if he wilfully and stubbornly refuses to recognize and submit to the Authority of The Life giver and especially so as a wifull stubborn denier will not be able to conduct himself according to the Spirit and will be totally carnal and an evil influence and of danger to those who have submitted their will to God.

Excuse me, how can you bring an indictment against God? you are making excuses for those who out of free will were turned over to the very desires they wanted. And it seems you would suggest God has stopped pursuing them at all before death in the body. The Gospel message is the POWER OF GOD TO SAVE EVERYONE CAN BE SAVED until they die.

 

[NilsForChrist]

part three
Psalms 9​

As we read this Psalm there are many word that we must look at to understand the word hell here which is translated = Sheol means or speaking about



This Psalm is a praise and thanksgiving to God for HIS justice on nations and people who are against the people of God or against God.



We read starting at verse 3



3. When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

4. For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.

5. Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

6. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.

7. But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.

8. And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

9. The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

10. And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 11. Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings. 12. When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. 13. Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death: 14. That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation. 15. The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.

16. The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.



17. The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. 18. For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.



The text is speaking of a past event of Gods judgement on people and nations yet it also speaks on the coming eternal judgment there are words used in ths PS to describe the place of hell

• verse 15 “Pit”= shakh'-ath can mean also the pit of hell
• snare and net speak of a judgment also a scheme that will not work on the people of God but will entrap those who made it. Hell here can be said to be literal and figuratively and that would be correct on within the context of this Ps.

exactly

EVERYONE CAN BE SAVED until they die.

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Peter 4:16

 

[CS1]

exactly

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Peter 4:16

what is your issue with the context of hell being a real place with internal conditions?

 

[NilsForChrist]

what is your issue with the context of hell being a real place with internal conditions?

I suppose ya missunderstood the subject. I likewise affirm a literal hell with conscious torment, as well as a lake of fire with constant torment. Does that make sense?

 

[WillB]

Excuse me, how can you bring an indictment against God? you are making excuses for those who out of free will were turned over to the very desires they wanted. And it seems you would suggest God has stopped pursuing them at all before death in the body. The Gospel message is the POWER OF GOD TO SAVE EVERYONE CAN BE SAVED until they die.

To suggest that I have brought an indictment against God in my response to your question: "Is it just for him [a wilful stubborn sinner]to cease to exist?" is a false proposition.

I have asked you if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner. Apparently, you think that is justice. But you haven't given a Scriptural based argument for your position.

Until such time as you can give a sound reasonable Scripture based argument which includes drilling down into the meaning of the words Sheol, Hell, Hades, Gehenna, and the Lake of Fire taking into consideration that Revelation contains much in the way of symbolic language you don't have a solid argument - only speculation ....and speculation which accords with your apparent approval of torturing people for eternity.

 

[oyster67]

I have asked you if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner. Apparently, you think that is justice. But you haven't given a Scriptural based argument for your position.

If God says it is just, then it is just.

Isaiah 55:9
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

exactly

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1 Peter 4:16

Amen a second witness

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:

he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭


“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44, 49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-3‬

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24,

 

[CS1]

To suggest that I have brought an indictment against God in my response to your question: "Is it just for him [a wilful stubborn sinner]to cease to exist?" is a false proposition.

I have asked you if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner. Apparently, you think that is justice. But you haven't given a Scriptural based argument for your position.

Until such time as you can give a sound reasonable Scripture based argument which includes drilling down into the meaning of the words Sheol, Hell, Hades, Gehenna, and the Lake of Fire taking into consideration that Revelation contains much in the way of symbolic language you don't have a solid argument - only speculation ....and speculation which accords with your apparent approval of torturing people for eternity.

anything God does is Justice. When God said to Saul to destroy all the Amalekites' women and children HE was Justice.

asking me what I think is irrelevant Because God is doing it not me. And you were provided many scriptures so stop being dishonest. You refuse to see what I and many others have provided. It is not my job to force you to see what you will not. The context within the text and authorial intent. Hermeneutics 101 guy. Your opinion of what is or is not solid is just your opinion. As I said your question of

"if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner."

is one asked from A HUMAN REASONING perspective, not from the God of the Bible who does that . Here endeth the lesson.

 

[WillB]

If God says it is just, then it is just.

Isaiah 55:9
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

It is true that God's ways are higher than ours etc but you have committed the logical fallacy of 'begging the question' in that you assume that God considers it just for a man to be tortured for eternity even though he may have lived as a sinner for 1000 years.

If you put eternity on one side of the scales (of Justice) and 1000 years on the other side of the scales (of Justice) do explain with a Scripture based argument - and not a frivolous opinion - the justice in that imbalance?

 

[WillB]

anything God does is Justice. When God said to Saul to destroy all the Amalekites' women and children HE was Justice.

asking me what I think is irrelevant Because God is doing it not me. And you were provided many scriptures so stop being dishonest. You refuse to see what I and many others have provided. It is not my job to force you to see what you will not. The context within the text and authorial intent. Hermeneutics 101 guy. Your opinion of what is or is not solid is just your opinion. As I said your question of

"if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner."

is one asked from A HUMAN REASONING perspective, not from the God of the Bible who does that . Here endeth the lesson.

anything God does is Justice. When God said to Saul to destroy all the Amalekites' women and children HE was Justice.



WB: Asking YOU what YOU think is entirely relevant because YOU make the claim when YOU say “Because God is Doing it” that YOU are God’s Spokesman.

I have asked you for a sound Scripture based argument which includes drilling down into the specific details of the words Sheol, Hades, Hell, and Gehenna and taking into consideration that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language.

You have failed to do so and your ‘argument’ such as it is is nothing but opinion and your opinion quite evidently is formed out of accepting what you’ve been told to believe and not the result of independent research and the application of critical thinking to test what others believe stands up to scrutiny.

CSI (citing WB): "if it is justice to torture a sinner for eternity even if he lived for 1000 years as a wilful sinner."


is one asked from A HUMAN REASONING perspective, not from the God of the Bible who does that . Here endeth the lesson.
it Don't mean a thing if you an't got the King

WB: “Who does that?” YOU have done precisely that because YOU assume that YOU are speaking for God and yet you have nothing whatsoever in the way of a coherent Scripture based argument and which is amply demonstrated by your glib last few words.

 

[oyster67]

you assume that God considers it just for a man to be tortured for eternity even though he may have lived as a sinner for 1000 years.

Yes.

If you put eternity on one side of the scales (of Justice) and 1000 years on the other side of the scales (of Justice) do explain with a Scripture based argument - and not a frivolous opinion - the justice in that imbalance?

When God's Word says it, I believe it.
No imbalance.
God is perfectly just.
If you don't agree, then it is you who is unjust, and is... wrong.

Job 4:17
“Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?”

Romans 3:4
“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.”

 

[Evmur]

It is true that God's ways are higher than ours etc but you have committed the logical fallacy of 'begging the question' in that you assume that God considers it just for a man to be tortured for eternity even though he may have lived as a sinner for 1000 years.

If you put eternity on one side of the scales (of Justice) and 1000 years on the other side of the scales (of Justice) do explain with a Scripture based argument - and not a frivolous opinion - the justice in that imbalance?

We deserve hell for what we are, not for what we do.

 

[Mem]

You have failed to do so and your ‘argument’ such as it is is nothing but opinion and your opinion quite evidently is formed out of accepting what you’ve been told to believe and not the result of independent research and the application of critical thinking to test what others believe stands up to scrutiny.

Peepaw was a pretty smart feller, 'snuff for me.