The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Saul-to-Paul]

I forgot one thing. The actual flaw in the pre-trib doctrine is that there are NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

That is the proof they MUST HAVE to prove their doctrine, and there isn't any evidence for it.

Plus the single resurrection of the saved, which occurs at the Second Advent. Can't argue against that.

AGAIN!

Revelation 11:11-12
11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[jb]

AGAIN!

Revelation 11:11-12
11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

They ain't glorified!

 

[oyster67]

Wrath comes from God.

Very good point. We should think of the Tribulation Period as the time of God's wrath as well as Satanic tribulation.

We, the Church, will not come under God's "Tribulation-time" wrath. We are under tribulation from the world right now. Now is the time to fight the good fight.

 

[oyster67]

So, since I am having difficulty with your generalized "answer", can you just quote a verse that clearly shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?

Sound doctrine is not developed by finding one isolated "magic verse". We do not determine that 1+1=2 by finding a magic verse that saith "Thoe shalt stack one upon oneth and create twoeth." The Bible says that we go up as the bride and are married to our Lord and descend with Him to reign on Earth for 1000 years. This is not compatible with anything else but pre-Trib rapture.

 

[bluto]

Sound doctrine is not developed by finding one isolated "magic verse". We do not determine that 1+1=2 by finding a magic verse that saith "Thoe shalt stack one upon oneth and create twoeth." The Bible says that we go up as the bride and are married to our Lord and descend with Him to reign on Earth for 1000 years. This is not compatible with anything else but pre-Trib rapture.

I must say that most of you pre-tribulation rapture advocates "go to verse" is " 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. I have a question? Will you be raptured before or after the antichrist is revealed?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[oyster67]

I must say that most of you pre-tribulation rapture advocates "go to verse" is " 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. I have a question? Will you be raptured before or after the antichrist is revealed?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Depends on whether he is revealed to me before the Rapture. God hasn't revealed Him to me yet.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Show us any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven. That's the evidence for a pre-trib rapture.

Reality: the single resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1, 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:4-6
All very clear.

AGAIN!

Revelation 11:11-12
11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

They ain't glorified!

1 Corinthians 15:43-45( KJV ) 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

 

[markss]

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great glory and power and He shall send forth His angels to gather His elect from the four winds"

...Jesus was post trib.

The church was a mystery revealed through Paul, therefore, Jesus was not prophesying the rapture of the church in that passage.

Much love!

 

[markss]

Sound doctrine is not developed by finding one isolated "magic verse". We do not determine that 1+1=2 by finding a magic verse that saith "Thoe shalt stack one upon oneth and create twoeth." The Bible says that we go up as the bride and are married to our Lord and descend with Him to reign on Earth for 1000 years. This is not compatible with anything else but pre-Trib rapture.

There are a number of things that are only compatible with pre-trib rapture, like the Sheep/Goats judgment, for instance. The sealing of teh 144,000, for another example.

And that the church was revealed by Paul, this negates many non-pre-trib arguments.

I've consistently found in debating this over many years is that non-pre-tribbers will inevitably come to a passage and declare that it's plain saying is actually not what you think. Like the sheep/goats, many will make it a parable, many will equate it to the great white throne judgment, and many will not be able to accept the terms by which Jesus judges these people. If you take it all at face value, pre-trib is the only thing that makes sense.

Much love!

 

[bluto]

Depends on whether he is revealed to me before the Rapture. God hasn't revealed Him to me yet.

What do you mean that it depends on whether the Lord has revealed it to you? The Lord has already revealed the answer to all of us in the Bible. Remember I posted Matthew 24:3 where His disciples ask Him, "what will be the sign of Your coming and the end of the age?"

Jesus then says at vs15, "Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the place, vs16, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. If you read the rest of the verses Jesus is telling them to get out of Dodge.

So logic dictates along with the words of Jesus that there is no rapture before the great tribulation. Why would he tell them to run if they are going to be raptured before the antichrist is revealed? Secondly, look at what 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 states. "Now we request you brethren with REGARD TO THE COMING OF OUR JESUS CHRIST, and our gathering together to Him."

Vs2, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message of a letter from us, to the effect THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS COME." Vs3, "Let no one in any way deceive you, FOR IT WILL NOT COME UNLESS THE APOSTACY COMES FIRST, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, THE SON OF DESTRUCTION. Vs, "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

Jumping to vs8. "And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and BRING TO AN END BY THE AP0PEARANCE OF HIS COMING."

Now, how is it that the Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus said at Matthew 24 to the letter? Keep in mind that the disciples ask Jesus the question at Matthew 24:3. Paul was not there and yet he knew exactly what was going to happen and he outlines the second coming, not the early rapture of the church before the second coming. You should really think about these things. Lastly, I did not give my opinion but rather quoted the scriptures themselves by taking them at face value.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[oyster67]

There are a number of things that are only compatible with pre-trib rapture, like the Sheep/Goats judgment, for instance. The sealing of teh 144,000, for another example.

And that the church was revealed by Paul, this negates many non-pre-trib arguments.

I've consistently found in debating this over many years is that non-pre-tribbers will inevitably come to a passage and declare that it's plain saying is actually not what you think. Like the sheep/goats, many will make it a parable, many will equate it to the great white throne judgment, and many will not be able to accept the terms by which Jesus judges these people. If you take it all at face value, pre-trib is the only thing that makes sense.

Much love!

Some seem so sure about post-trib, but it just does not add up. Many hoops must be jumped through.
Another mistake is to identify the post-Armeggedon feast of the birds as the Marriage Supper.

When and where do you believe the Bema-Seat (believer's works) Judgement takes place?

God bless you,
and the post-tribbers too.

 

[markss]

Some seem so sure about post-trib, but it just does not add up. Many hoops must be jumped through.
Another mistake is to identify the post-Armeggedon feast of the birds as the Marriage Supper.

When and where do you believe the Bema-Seat (believer's works) Judgement takes place?

God bless you,
and the post-tribbers too.

That's a good question! I've not seen anywhere it's stated, so all I can say is after our death/transformation. What do you think?

Much love!

 

[oyster67]

That's a good question! I've not seen anywhere it's stated, so all I can say is after our death/transformation. What do you think?

Much love!

Not sure either, but the scriptures do speak of the day it shall happen (the judgment of believers works):

1 Corinthians 3:
9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Evmur]

The church was a mystery revealed through Paul, therefore, Jesus was not prophesying the rapture of the church in that passage.

Much love!

it was not a mystery to Jesus

 

[Evmur]

Sound doctrine is not developed by finding one isolated "magic verse". We do not determine that 1+1=2 by finding a magic verse that saith "Thoe shalt stack one upon oneth and create twoeth." The Bible says that we go up as the bride and are married to our Lord and descend with Him to reign on Earth for 1000 years. This is not compatible with anything else but pre-Trib rapture.

nor is it compatible with anything in the bible
The church reigns in heaven
the Jews reign upon the earth

 

[markss]

it was not a mystery to Jesus

In that the church was revealed through Paul, Jesus did not reveal the church, therefore, His prophecies were not concerning the church, therefore, His prophecies were concerning Israel.

Jesus was not prophesying the rapture of the church in the gathering of the elect in the Olivette Discourse. He was prophesying the gathering of the surviving Israelites to their promised land.

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

In that the church was revealed through Paul, Jesus did not reveal the church, therefore, His prophecies were not concerning the church, therefore, His prophecies were concerning Israel.

Jesus was not prophesying the rapture of the church in the gathering of the elect in the Olivette Discourse. He was prophesying the gathering of the surviving Israelites to their promised land.

Much love!

I understand your perspective but do not agree.

There is but one coming in the clouds with great power and glory, trumpet blast and angels and that is to gather His elect.

The Jews [as I understand] will be gathered to their land from whence they will reign with Christ.

We reign from heaven.

love in Jesus

 

[Evmur]

They ain't glorified!

sure they are, in a twink of an eye

 

[markss]

I understand your perspective but do not agree.

There is but one coming in the clouds with great power and glory, trumpet blast and angels and that is to gather His elect.

The Jews [as I understand] will be gathered to their land from whence they will reign with Christ.

We reign from heaven.

love in Jesus

How do you see the sheep/goats judgment in Matthew 25? Exactly as written? A gentile judgment when Jesus takes His throne after He returns?

Much love!

 

[markss]

I understand your perspective but do not agree.

There is but one coming in the clouds with great power and glory, trumpet blast and angels and that is to gather His elect.

The Jews [as I understand] will be gathered to their land from whence they will reign with Christ.

We reign from heaven.

love in Jesus

When do you see the Jews being gathered, at that same time?

Much love!