The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Evmur]

So then you don't see this sheep/goats judgment as actually happening when Jesus returns and takes His throne? Or do you? I'm confused by your answer. Are you saying this is a retelling of the Great White Throne Judgment of the dead? Maybe you can clarify this for me.

Much love!

It is the final judgement in both accounts assigning to everyone who ever lived their final abode. they are the same.
In Matts account the King has gathered all nations and divided them with the sheep upon His right hand but the goats upon His left.
John in Revelations has them divided between "the living and the dead."

If they are as I have said neither the church nor yet the Jews then there is to be a much, much wider mercy than is commonly supposed or preached.

I have good solid scripture for my position, not the least of which [and should ring bells in the ears of all evangelicals] the sheep in Matthew are judged and REWARDED for their DEEDS. In Revelations they are judged according to their DEEDS. This most definitely contradicts the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith.

This is why this stoopid argument has raged for 2, 000 years in the church between who insist we must obey the law and do good deeds to be saved, they use the sheep and goats to illustrate their position, and those of us who believe we are saved by grace only through faith not our own.

Imma saying a wedge has been taken out of the gospel by the RCC i.e. the Millennium, but they have also gone deathly silent concerning the fact that there is to be a NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth.

Now if our dwelling is to be the heavenlies who are they who are to inhabit the new earth ? Defo Heaven and Earth are to be united in Christ yet still is there this distinction, Heaven and Earth.

The sheeps, those who are set upon His right hand who ministered to the needs of Christ and His brethren. The meek of the earth.

Blessed are the pure in heart, who hunger and thirst for righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

Just the way Jesus addresses the sheeps, "Come ye blessed of My Father.... " He doesn't say YOUR Father or even THE Father bu My Father. Those sheep had no awareness of the doctrine concerning the indwelling Christ, they had no recognition that to minister to the church is to minister to Christ.

But He says "in as much as ye have done it to one the least of these My brethren ...." once again it is not YOUR brethren or THE brethren but My brethren.

I contend that the inheritance they are to receive which was planned for them from the beginning of the world is the new earth.

Our home is heaven.

 

[Evmur]

I was interested in when you see it happening.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Much love!

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

Matthew 24. 31 in my mind is speaking of the church, "from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other" speaks of to me the elect among the nations i.e. the church.

The Jews imho will already have been gathered.

The purpose for the gathering of the Jews into their own land and for the gathering of the church in the rapture is the same. It is to protect them from the wrath of God.

 

[ResidentAlien]

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

"You don't even understand that 'the new heavens and the earth' is simply a metaphor for the new covenant. The entire book of Revelation is not about the future, but surely you say, it is. OK. Prove it. Where in the book of Revelation do we read that this book was written for the far, far, far future? Chapter and verse, please!"

What absolute rubbish. Sometimes I think people must just sit around trying to make up ideas more ridiculous than the last.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

Matthew 24. 31 in my mind is speaking of the church, "from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other" speaks of to me the elect among the nations i.e. the church.

The Jews imho will already have been gathered.

The purpose for the gathering of the Jews into their own land and for the gathering of the church in the rapture is the same. It is to protect them from the wrath of God.

I agree 'Elect' - is a term used for The Church.

33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Rom 8


12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you,
so you also must do. Col 3


Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads
to godliness – Titus


ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) chosen, selected
The same word Jesus used in Matt 24, Mark 13 & Luke 18

 

[markss]

Why are you changing the subject? The question has to do with the timing of the return of Jesus Christ. To those who believe a rapture of the church will be before the great tribulation. I say the second coming is AFTER the tribulation, that is what my post are addressing. I don't care about the judgment of the goats etc. Stick to the topic. So again, what did I state that is not Biblical?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

This doctrine doesn't exist in a vacuum. You need not answer, no worries!

Much love!

 

[markss]

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

Matthew 24. 31 in my mind is speaking of the church, "from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other" speaks of to me the elect among the nations i.e. the church.

The Jews imho will already have been gathered.

The purpose for the gathering of the Jews into their own land and for the gathering of the church in the rapture is the same. It is to protect them from the wrath of God.

Do you see this being parallel?

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!

 

[markss]

It is the final judgement in both accounts assigning to everyone who ever lived their final abode. they are the same.

Isn't the sheep/goats after Jesus returns to the earth? While the Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000 years? And isn't the sheep/goats judgment the gentile nations gathered, while the GWTJ is "the dead, small and great"? I see more differences also, but what do you think about these?

Much love!

 

[markss]

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

At the time Jesus gave this prophecy,

"the chosen will be gathered from all over", and "the nations will be gathered to be judged", who would the Jews understand Jesus to be speaking of? The chosen, and the nations? Was "elect" used to designate a gentile church? Or was that only a number of years later in Paul's writing?

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

At the time Jesus gave this prophecy,

"the chosen will be gathered from all over", and "the nations will be gathered to be judged", who would the Jews understand Jesus to be speaking of? The chosen, and the nations? Was "elect" used to designate a gentile church? Or was that only a number of years later in Paul's writing?

Much love!

I understand this view but I believe Jesus often spoke over the heads of His Jewish audience

Love in Jesus.

 

[markss]

To those who believe a rapture of the church will be before the great tribulation. I say the second coming is AFTER the tribulation,

I believe the rapture will happen before the great tribulation, and the gathering of the elect is NOT the rapture of the church, which will have occurred by that time. The prophecy of the sheep/goats judgment, if you take it "as-is", disallows other views. So pretty much everyone I know who is not pre-trib also does not accept the sheep/goats prophecy exactly as it was given. They change it around, because it won't harmonize without that with any view except pre-trib and a certain version of pre-wrath, which has it's own problems.

If you want to follow this through just let me know.

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

Isn't the sheep/goats after Jesus returns to the earth? While the Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000 years? And isn't the sheep/goats judgment the gentile nations gathered, while the GWTJ is "the dead, small and great"? I see more differences also, but what do you think about these?

Much love!

Paul doesn't speak of it in Thess. only the gathering of the church.

It depends what you think of the 1, 000 years, the common consensus seems to be He comes to save us and kill everybody else, exactly what the Jews thought. But Isaiah an' me envisage it as a time when the nations will flock to Israel, to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. When nations will study war no more.

 

[markss]

I understand this view but I believe Jesus often spoke over the heads of His Jewish audience

Love in Jesus.

Yes, that's a common understanding. I think that Jesus spoke to be understood in the language of His day. They didn't understand sometimes, but I don't think it's because His wording was unclear. For instance, He had prophesied His death several times, very plainly, but they for the most part did not understand. But the wording was clear.

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

Do you see this being parallel?

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!

I don't but I can see an argument for it. I believe Israel will have had a war wiv the arabs and won and expanded according to prophecy from Sinai to the Euphrates. A super power strong enough to have a peace pact with nastypants who will be running rampart destroying every trace of religion ... which pact he will break after 3 1/2 ryears.

 

[markss]

Paul doesn't speak of it in Thess. only the gathering of the church.

It depends what you think of the 1, 000 years, the common consensus seems to be He comes to save us and kill everybody else, exactly what the Jews thought. But Isaiah an' me envisage it as a time when the nations will flock to Israel, to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. When nations will study war no more.

As I see it written in the Bible, the Sheep/goats is at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the GWTJ after the 1000 years.

Jesus comes, regathers Israel to her promised land, then gathers the nations and judges them, only allowing the gentiles which helped Israel to remain, sending away the rest. The gathered Jews, and righteous gentiles will go on to live in the kingdom.

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

As I see it written in the Bible, the Sheep/goats is at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the GWTJ after the 1000 years.

Jesus comes, regathers Israel to her promised land, then gathers the nations and judges them, only allowing the gentiles which helped Israel to remain, sending away the rest. The gathered Jews, and righteous gentiles will go on to live in the kingdom.

Much love!

OK it's a reasonable proposition

Israel then will reign over who? who are they who come to learn the ways of the God of Jacob? who are they who refuse to come and are slain?

What decides me for one only last judgement at the end of the 1, 000 years is the permanence of their final assignments whether for reward or for punishment. that is in my mind finite, the end.

 

[markss]

Israel then will reign over who? who are they who come to learn the ways of the God of Jacob? who are they who refuse to come and are slain?

The nations who remain after the sheep/goats.

Much love!

 

[AlwaysCurious]

You have reversed the sequence of events, which means that you yourself have introduced the "killer flaw". The Bible is very clear:

1. God gives the Beast (the Antichrist, the Man of Sin) 3 1/2 years (42 months) to take total control of the earth and its inhabitants. This corresponds to the Tribulation.

2. During that time he not only sits in the temple of God claiming that he is God, but he also sets up the Abomination of Desolation (an animated image of himself within the Holy Place).

3. This triggers the Great Tribulation which lasts for less than 3 1/2 years, since the time has to be shortened.

4. Following this there comes a period of cataclysmic cosmic events corresponding to the 6th seal.

5. Then comes the Second Coming of Christ, at which time the Beast and the False Prophet are killed and cast into the Lake of Fire.

6. Following this Christ establishes His reign on earth for 1,000 years. This is a prelude to His eternal reign of earth.

Great answer! Here is how think the time will be shortened.
We all know that in the past God has; a) stopped the earth’s spin
and b) reversed the earth’s spin, so what I’m proposing here is not beyond reason.

Half-way into the 7 Year/2520 day Tribulation Period:
The earth’s rate of spin will increase substantially resulting in a shorter 16 hour day
for the 2nd half of the Tribulation Period (1260 days)

Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck,
a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened.
A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night. Rev 8:12

The day will become ⅓ shorter. (24 hours - 8 hours = the new 16 hr day)
God will do this to preserve the lives of His elect who will enter into the 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ.

“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;
but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.” (Matthew 24:22)
“And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved;
but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.” (Mark 13:20)

Today (before the Tribulation) 3.5 years equals 30,681 hours
(3.5 x 365.25 x 24 hrs = 30,681)

The 1st half of the Tribulation will have 441 fewer hours than today.
(3.5 x 360 x 24 hrs = 30,240)

The 2nd half of the Tribulation will have 10,521 fewer hours than today.
(3.5 x 360 x 16 hrs = 20,160 hours)

And how will the “Little Horn” (Antichrist) of Dan. 7:25
react to earth’s new 16 hour day?
“he shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
and shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
for a time and times and half a time. ”
(or three and one-half years).

The Antichrist will “intend to change times”.
New “time standards” would be required to match earth’s new reality.
All existing clocks/calendars would be worthless.

 

[cv5]

The beast has been slain in the temple when he sat and declared that he himself is God.

All OT and NT passages need to be taken into account to get the big picture.
These passages are insufficient......but enough to start with.

The beast is first killed then resurrected when indwelt by Satan. Happens mid-trib.....the start of Jacobs trouble!

1) AC killed by deadly head wound during the wars of the 10 kings
2) war in heaven - Satan cast down to earth
3) Satan enters the AC and he comes back to life, the world is astonished at this "unkillable" AC super-being
4) remaining earthly kings/kingdoms stop their wars and align with this supposedly all-powerful unkillable beast (the greater Goliath) and give him their power
5) THEN the mark of the beast is imposed
6) THEN the persecution of the saints and Israel begins in earnest
7) THEN mercies and longsuffering end and God unleashes full fury against those who have WILLINGLY taken the mark of the beast and made themselves IRREDEMABLE by doing so.

6 & 7 happen contemporaneously.

Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rev 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and [THEN] all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 13:17
and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:9
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10
“he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Great answer! Here is how think the time will be shortened.

That is entirely possible.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

As I see it written in the Bible, the Sheep/goats is at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the GWTJ after the 1000 years.

Agreed!

Jesus comes, regathers Israel to her promised land, then gathers the nations and judges them, only allowing the gentiles which helped Israel to remain, sending away the rest. The gathered Jews, and righteous gentiles will go on to live in the kingdom.

Agreed!