This is true, and Scripture says God knows none are looking for HIM... and yet we are to seek with all our hearts.
Jeremiah 29:13-14a
Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look
- Thread starter 2ndTimothyGroup
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jeremiah 29:13-14a
Jesus does all that when we ask Him into our rotten heart. He does the cleaning.
Don't let anyone make you think it is any more complicated than that.
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
Yes...God does it all...The three I s...He does the drawing , the washing , He gives us a new spirit , as I said before , without His work on my life , I would not of come to the cross...I never invited Him , He drew me...Quiet simple really , nothing hard about it at all...
As they should. people in the world, as a whole DO NOT WANT TO RETAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD in their conciousness, and SHOULD be terrified, when He demonstrates His power, and presence in the world. so no problem at all here. People who want to AVOID GOD, and run from His requirements would NATURALLY REACT WITH FEAR, when God reminds them that He's there, and that He wants something.
It's a natural reaction to the presence of something/SOMEBODY that you want to avoid at all costs.
I've got no PERSONAL PROBLEM with the EXISTENCE of God, as presented in the Scriptures. Fools always say that He's ONLY A GOD OF LOVE, when Biblically it's clear that He's NOT "Monolithic", and is also a God of WRATH against his enemies, and a God of Judgement. And whether YOU like it or not, God has provided a way for us to be at peace with Him.
But HEY!! let's see whatever foolishness you want to present against God. I'll get the Popcorn.
No. Each person has the free will to choose, and many, perhaps most, people aren't interested.
Semantics?
Everyone has the free will to choose.
Free will is a misnomer. Doesn't mean the choice is not put to us.No. Each person has the free will to choose, and many, perhaps most, people aren't interested.
Semantics?
Nor can a dead person choose.
If the choice is "put to us," then we can choose. We have the free will to choose.
Spiritually dead unsaved people have the ability to choose to believe the gospel.
You can choose to grow and extra leg but it does not mean you are free to do so. The will is constrained by many factors.
Biblically that is false.
1 Corinthians 2:14
People don't have the ability to grow an extra leg, but they do have the ability to believe the gospel.
Yes.
No accurate translation reads "The person without the spirit." The word is psuchikos, and it means soul oriented, or worldly minded. A soul oriented or worldly minded person can become curious about God, become spiritually minded.
Sure... after God has circumcised their heart.
Therefore "free will" is a misnomer.
New International Version
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers
them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
New Living Translation
But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them
and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.
English Standard Version
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly
to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Berean Standard Bible
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Berean Literal Bible
But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness
to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned.
King James Bible
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
New King James Version
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are
foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
New American Standard Bible
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NASB 1995
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
NASB 1977
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness
to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Christian Standard Bible
But the person without the Spirit does not receive what comes from God’s Spirit, because
it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is
foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
American Standard Version
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For a selfish man does not receive spiritual things, for they are madness
to him, and he is not able to know, for they are known by The Spirit.
Contemporary English Version
This is why only someone who has God's Spirit can understand spiritual blessings.
Anyone who doesn't have God's Spirit thinks these blessings are foolish.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it
is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.
International Standard Version
A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are
nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.
Literal Standard Version
and the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him, and he is not able to know [them], because they are discerned spiritually;
New American Bible
Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to
him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.
NET Bible
The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
New Revised Standard Version
Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness
to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
New Heart English Bible
Now the natural person does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Weymouth New Testament
The unspiritual man rejects the things of the Spirit of God, and cannot
attain to the knowledge of them, because they are spiritually judged.
World English Bible
Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are
foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Young's Literal Translation
and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are
foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;
Greek
[The] natural
Ψυχικὸς (Psychikos)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 5591: Animal, natural, sensuous. From psuche; sensitive, i.e. Animate.
man
ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 444: A man, one of the human race. From aner and ops; man-faced, i.e. A human being.
{does} not
οὐ (ou)
Adverb
Strong's 3756: No, not. Also ouk, and ouch a primary word; the absolute negative adverb; no or not.
accept
δέχεται (dechetai)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1209: To take, receive, accept, welcome. Middle voice of a primary verb; to receive.
the things that
τὰ (ta)
Article - Accusative Neuter Plural
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
come from the
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Spirit
Πνεύματος (Pneumatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 4151: Wind, breath, spirit.
of God.
Θεοῦ (Theou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.
For
γὰρ (gar)
Conjunction
Strong's 1063: For. A primary particle; properly, assigning a reason.
they are
ἐστίν (estin)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.
foolishness
μωρία (mōria)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 3472: Folly, absurdity, foolishness. From moros; silliness, i.e. Absurdity.
to him,
αὐτῷ (autō)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
he cannot
δύναται (dynatai)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1410: (a) I am powerful, have (the) power, (b) I am able, I can. Of uncertain affinity; to be able or possible.
understand [them],
γνῶναι (gnōnai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 1097: A prolonged form of a primary verb; to 'know' in a great variety of applications and with many implications.
because
ὅτι (hoti)
Conjunction
Strong's 3754: Neuter of hostis as conjunction; demonstrative, that; causative, because.
{they are} spiritually
πνευματικῶς (pneumatikōs)
Adverb
Strong's 4153: Adverb from pneumatikos; non-physically, i.e. Divinely, figuratively.
discerned.
ἀνακρίνεται (anakrinetai)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 350: From ana and krino; properly, to scrutinize, i.e. investigate, interrogate, determine.
[The] natural
Ψυχικὸς (Psychikos)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 5591: Animal, natural, sensuous. From psuche; sensitive, i.e. Animate.
man
ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 444: A man, one of the human race. From aner and ops; man-faced, i.e. A human being.
{does} not
οὐ (ou)
Adverb
Strong's 3756: No, not. Also ouk, and ouch a primary word; the absolute negative adverb; no or not.
accept
δέχεται (dechetai)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1209: To take, receive, accept, welcome. Middle voice of a primary verb; to receive.
the things that
τὰ (ta)
Article - Accusative Neuter Plural
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
come from the
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Spirit
Πνεύματος (Pneumatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 4151: Wind, breath, spirit.
of God.
Θεοῦ (Theou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.
For
γὰρ (gar)
Conjunction
Strong's 1063: For. A primary particle; properly, assigning a reason.
they are
ἐστίν (estin)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.
foolishness
μωρία (mōria)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 3472: Folly, absurdity, foolishness. From moros; silliness, i.e. Absurdity.
to him,
αὐτῷ (autō)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
he cannot
δύναται (dynatai)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1410: (a) I am powerful, have (the) power, (b) I am able, I can. Of uncertain affinity; to be able or possible.
understand [them],
γνῶναι (gnōnai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 1097: A prolonged form of a primary verb; to 'know' in a great variety of applications and with many implications.
because
ὅτι (hoti)
Conjunction
Strong's 3754: Neuter of hostis as conjunction; demonstrative, that; causative, because.
{they are} spiritually
πνευματικῶς (pneumatikōs)
Adverb
Strong's 4153: Adverb from pneumatikos; non-physically, i.e. Divinely, figuratively.
discerned.
ἀνακρίνεται (anakrinetai)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 350: From ana and krino; properly, to scrutinize, i.e. investigate, interrogate, determine.
Then since God wants everyone to be saved, He has circumcised everyone's heart.
If you insist...
But anyone has the capacity, the free will, to choose to believe the gospel.Only the NIV, CSB, and CEV say, or allude to, "without the spirit." They are not good translations of 1 Cor 2:14. The rest have "natural," "unspiritual," "sensual," "selfish," or similar, which are better, they're close to the meaning of psuchikos. The word does not mean "without the spirit."
Also, if nobody could understand spiritual things without having the Holy Spirit, then what Peter said in Acts 2:38 makes no sense.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Thanks for demonstrating my point.
The word simply doesn’t mean “without the spirit.” While it’s true that most natural, selfish, or soul-minded people don’t have the Spirit, the verse cannot be used to prove Calvinism.
Thank you for your very kind words, 2ndTimothy
The Scriptures you have provided to support your point of view can hardly be argued...
I think it comes down to whether or not we have a choice to believe, and how that comes about.
I do not believe in free will, as you may know. Our will is constrained by too many factors to be called free.
And spiritually dead people cannot respond to that which they find foolish, beyond mocking and scoffing in rejection.
Surely God does a work in us before we can respond in the positive/affirmative to His invitation
That work is that which we agree on: the circumcision of our hearts
Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Magenta, all that you wrote was amazing. I love your overall genteel way about yourself . . . I have watched you closely during my stay here. Much respect for you.
That said, I have already joined an alternate Christian Forum and find no rational reason to come back to this one. I have done all that I can, here, as my time and efforts have run their course. Even though I have offended many, many people here, I hope that I have not offended our God, but have instead found His approval.
If I can ever do anything for you, you may certainly contact me at 2ndtimothygroup@gmail.com.
May our Powerful, Almighty God grant you the most amazing of all Blessings outside of those that you have already obtained!
The circumcision of the heart comes when one believes. If it came before, everyone would have circumcised hearts, and there would be no point warning people that their hearts needed circumcising. God calls people to Him, but this is different to circumcising their hearts - Abraham believed God before he was circumcised.
Calvinism, huh? LOL. The point demonstrated is that God does a work before the natural manThanks for demonstrating my point.
can believe... despite your insistence to the contrary. First comes the natural, then the Spiritual.
Yes. That (the part I underlined) is Calvinism, or at least a part of it.
1 Cor 15:44-46 is not talking about the process of getting saved, but about the new bodies we will have.
Nobody gets a new body unless they are saved. Yes, that must come first. Logic 101.
From 1 Corinthians 15:50-54