Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Mem]

The book of Jude comes to mind

Also, I was thinking of Jeremiah 12:

The Prosperity of the Wicked

1Righteous are You, O LORD,
when I plead before You.
Yet about Your judgments
I wish to contend with You:
Why does the way of the wicked prosper?
Why do all the faithless live at ease?
2You planted them, and they have taken root.
They have grown and produced fruit.
You are ever on their lips,
but far from their hearts.

 

[Runningman]

Suppose a man receives the words of salvation, but has no love for God and actively hates the idea that he's a sinner and is beholden to God.

The bar for loving God that God said to meet is “thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength” per Mark 12:30. It’s a pretty high bar.

Do you love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength? What does it look like when someone does love God in this way and do we have any examples aside from Jesus?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

repeat an old point - "What IF..."

Hypotheticals Never work; Scripture Always Answers Correctly!:

God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ
+
God's Eternal Assurance

Grace, Peace, And JOY In The LORD Jesus Christ, His ETERNAL
Salvation, And In His Precious Word of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

The book of Jude comes to mind

Jude 1:20 "But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Like I said he refuses to receive any of this.

You haven't been paying any attention.

James made it very clear, you can't show people your faith, you can only show them your works and he used the example of Abraham offering up his son.

James was very clear. In order to show your faith, you NEED works. v.18 the James' whole point.

What is the point of OSAS?

You mean other than that Jesus taught it clearly?

You have no way of knowing if someone is saved because you have no way of knowing if they have believed.

This is irrelevant. The doctrine of eternal security is for the believer. Believers need to know what Jesus taught.

Therefore if you are buying this stuff you can easily be deceived as many are in these Mega Mason Churches.

More irrelevancy. Doesn't matter what anyone teaches. What matters is that the Bible teaches it.

However, you can see the faith by the works.

Right. And that is the whole point of ch 2.

Someone offers up their son, their only son, then that is very clear evidence that they believe in the resurrection.

Right. Abraham could have said anything. But what he did (DEED) showed his faith.

You need both, faith and works.

Question: You need both, for WHAT, specifically? I dare you to say salvation.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Did you try it?

yes, because as a Law of Physics, humanity is born with an inherited trait that adapts to Gravity because it can be observed with the naked eye.

but trusting God is trusting in someone you will most likely never meet on this side of Heaven. even though we know it is God who supplies our needs, blesses us, comforts us, protects us, but unlike Gravity, we apply God to everything good we see because we will never fully witness Him until we are finally with Him.

so the two are not even close to being the same.

one is able to be observed immediately at any given time + can be tested at any given time, the other, is blinded trust that God is there even when we feel He's not.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jude 1:20 "But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life."

I was thinking more of this

4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into liscentiousness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

these people crept into the church and no one noticed their unbelief

these same men did this

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Apostates Depraved and Doomed
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Apostates Predicted
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

These people were in the churches in Jude's day. and we see more and more of them today. just as prophesied

 

[AndrewMorgan]

So, to clarify, you've imagined a person realizing (or coming to a belief that) he is in need of a savior and that Savior is manifested in Jesus but hates Him and is ingrateful to Him so much that he lives in sin like there's no tomorrow and invites everyone to rebel with him? Could you give an example of what this person's confession would look like?
Would it be something like, "I hate being a sinner and needing a savior so I'm just going to sin all I can until I die?"

More like - "I hate being deemed a sinner by God and his people, but I'm going to avail myself of His redemptive plan and maintain my attitude (in the understanding of the matter).

 

[AndrewMorgan]

More like - "I hate being deemed a sinner by God and his people, but I'm going to avail myself of His redemptive plan and maintain my attitude (in the understanding of the matter).

I meant to say "his" understanding.

 

[Grandpa]

yes, because as a Law of Physics, humanity is born with an inherited trait that adapts to Gravity because it can be observed with the naked eye.

but trusting God is trusting in someone you will most likely never meet on this side of Heaven. even though we know it is God who supplies our needs, blesses us, comforts us, protects us, but unlike Gravity, we apply God to everything good we see because we will never fully witness Him until we are finally with Him.

so the two are not even close to being the same.

one is able to be observed immediately at any given time + can be tested at any given time, the other, is blinded trust that God is there even when we feel He's not.

The same "trait" adapts to the Trustworthiness of God.

Trust is trust.

Otherwise, all you have is an intellectual belief.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


If you don't believe that making your calling and election sure is EVEN POSSIBLE, I suppose all you can ever have is intellectual belief and a distant hope.

If you were diligent to make your calling and election sure then you have no fear of falling from your present Salvation. YOU WILL NEVER FALL.

Sounds like OSAS right?

 

[EDENgate]

I'm not talking about belief AT ALL. I'm talking about trust.

You wouldn't get it anyways and it would be a waste of time.

Try to focus.

May I ask a question?

Why are some here aggressive toward other Christians when debating the Bible?

Not just you but those like you in this thread.

Why condescend,Levy sarcasm, insulting innuendo, and so forth on order to attempt to insist your understanding of any given passage is superior to those pasted with that condescension, sarcasm,insult, intended to nullify their perspective.

Seriously. How do we talk Bible among one another while violating Jesus basic tenets of showing love and respect and kindness to one another?

''Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.''

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

EG, and did you read this that you quoted from Jude?

Jude 1:5: "5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."

Here we see again that initial deliverance is not the same as final salvation. They were saved in the sense they were delivered from Egpyt, which signified slavery to sin. But then they needed to persevere to enter the Promised Land, which signifies Heaven. By these Biblical Types, therefore, and by the express statement of the Apostle Jude, we have yet another further confirmation that perseverance in faith until the end is necessary for salvation?

Can you explain why the Lord didn't say: "He who is saved will persevere till the end"? #ThingsJesusneversaid. That's what you believe, right?

Instead, He said: "He who perseveres to the end will be saved". That's what I believe. The two have a subtle difference.

God Bless.

 

[ZNP]

EG, and did you read this that you quoted from Jude?

Jude 1:5: "5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."

Here we see again that initial deliverance is not the same as final salvation. They were saved in the sense they were delivered from Egpyt, which signified slavery to sin. But then they needed to persevere to enter the Promised Land, which signifies Heaven. By these Biblical Types, therefore, and by the express statement of the Apostle Jude, we have yet another further confirmation that perseverance in faith until the end is necessary for salvation?

Can you explain why the Lord didn't say: "He who is saved will persevere till the end"? #ThingsJesusneversaid. That's what you believe, right?

Instead, He said: "He who perseveres to the end will be saved". That's what I believe. The two have a subtle difference.

God Bless.

Also, how could an unsaved person persevere. So the idea that if you don't persevere you were never saved makes no sense.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Yes, neither could a person who was not justified love with agape love. Yet in Mat 24:12-13, it clearly says these just loved with agape love, but then their love, sadly, grew cold, because of the increase of wickedness. But those who by God's Grace persevered to the end and whose love did not grow cold were saved. Here is the passage:

Mat 24:

"12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

And the Greek: https://biblehub.com/matthew/24-12.htm

"love
ἀγάπη (agapē)"

Only those truly justified can love with the Agape Love of Jesus Christ. Hence, it follows these were truly justified. From this passage, we learn, after being justified, we must persevere to the end in faith and love for Jesus Christ, and we'll be saved.

God Bless.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

EG, and did you read this that you quoted from Jude?

Jude 1:5: "5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."

Here we see again that initial deliverance is not the same as final salvation. They were saved in the sense they were delivered from Egpyt, which signified slavery to sin. But then they needed to persevere to enter the Promised Land, which signifies Heaven. By these Biblical Types, therefore, and by the express statement of the Apostle Jude, we have yet another further confirmation that perseverance in faith until the end is necessary for salvation?

Can you explain why the Lord didn't say: "He who is saved will persevere till the end"? #ThingsJesusneversaid. That's what you believe, right?

Instead, He said: "He who perseveres to the end will be saved". That's what I believe. The two have a subtle difference.

God Bless.

they were never saved is the point. They followed God out but continually complained day after day after day. If they truly trusted God they would have showed faith in Gods salvation at the red sea. at the rock. at the mountain when moses went up to meet God.. They did not. because they never trusted God

We are not saved because we merely believe and we will go and try this stuff out and see what God will do in our lives. We do not put God on probation like they did..

No one can persevere to the end my friend (for salvation) you would have to be sinless. Thats is Gods requirement..

I am confused as to how people can think they live above Gods standard. when the standard is perfect obedience.. And NO one but Christ has accomplished that. which is WHY he had to go to the cross

 

[FreeGrace2]

they were never saved is the point.

Yes, they WERE saved. Paul said so.
1 Cor 10-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

v.3 and 4 make clear that they were saved.

Further proof is found here:

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

How can unbelievers be any kind of example for believers? That wouldn't make any sense.

They followed God out but continually complained day after day after day.

As if believers aren't complainers?? The point is that they DID follow God. Moses, actually. But they knew Moses was following God's orders and they complied.

If they truly trusted God they would have showed faith in Gods salvation at the red sea. at the rock. at the mountain when moses went up to meet God..

The fact that they DID go through the Red Sea proved their faith in God's salvation. Would someone who didn't trust God actually walk through a trough of water on both sides??

They did not. because they never trusted God

I've just shown that they DID trust God. The point is that they were never happy with God. They were whiners. Don't you know any Christians who are whiners?

We are not saved because we merely believe and we will go and try this stuff out and see what God will do in our lives. We do not put God on probation like they did..

There is no evidence that they put God on probation. And your comment about not being saved because we "merely belive" is unbiblical.

That is exactly Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Pauls' answer was to believe. Nothing else.

You are forcing works or whatever into what you think is required to be saved. But verse after verse says plainly that we are saved and have eternal life on the basis of believing, without any other thing.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

they were not saved, thats why they never entered the promised land.

They ate the same spiritual food. but they did not respond to the food they ate..

 

[ZNP]

they were not saved, thats why they never entered the promised land.

They ate the same spiritual food. but they did not respond to the food they ate..

So Once saved always saved teaches that salvation is the result of obediently following the Lord out of Egypt, into the wilderness, through the wilderness for 40 years and then into the good land?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So Once saved always saved teaches that salvation is the result of obediently following the Lord out of Egypt, into the wilderness, through the wilderness for 40 years and then into the good land?

No.

OSAS is saying that the people who had TRUE faith in God entered the promised land

those who did not. as shown by their continued lack of faith and sin. were never saved.

I find it amazing you think people who sinned immediately after they were supposedly saved and continued to live in that sin was ever saved.

 

[ZNP]

No.

OSAS is saying that the people who had TRUE faith in God entered the promised land

those who did not. as shown by their continued lack of faith and sin. were never saved.

I find it amazing you think people who sinned immediately after they were supposedly saved and continued to live in that sin was ever saved.

OK, so you think that out of the 2 million people who put blood on their doorposts and ate the Passover lamb, and passed through the Red Sea, and that followed the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fie, and drank the water and ate the manna, that 2 were saved and 1,999,998 were not.