Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do YOU have the ability to explain the difference between belief and trust? Gramps didn't have the ability.

I cannot see your heart, I don't know who has belief and who doesn't. But I can see trust. I can see Abraham trusting God when he offers up his son.

This isn't an explanation of either word.

Read that again, God says to Abraham now I know your heart.

So what? I was asking for an explanation of the difference between belief and trust? The poster who made this claim has copped out and won't answer. Rather, he stooped low to throw ad hominem at me. Apparently he was more interested in insulting others than providing an explanation for what he believed.

For me, the difference is easy to explain. They mean the SAME THING, with one exception.

Belief can come from either experience, or from trust.

See how simple this is. Not difficult at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do YOU have the ability to explain the difference between belief and trust? Gramps didn't have the ability.

Belief and trust don't have to be 100% of either. There is middle ground that exists between the two. With people, we may believe certain things they say and may trust certain things they say, but their repertoire may require evidence and/or proof be produced often enough until confidence is gained.

Check out post 1501. If you disagree, let me know.

 

[ZNP]

Like I said he refuses to receive any of this. James made it very clear, you can't show people your faith, you can only show them your works and he used the example of Abraham offering up his son.

What is the point of OSAS? You have no way of knowing if someone is saved because you have no way of knowing if they have believed. Therefore if you are buying this stuff you can easily be deceived as many are in these Mega Mason Churches.

However, you can see the faith by the works. Someone offers up their son, their only son, then that is very clear evidence that they believe in the resurrection.

For example, suppose you have a nuclear reactor. All the power, all the energy is coming from that nuclear reaction. You can't see that, in this analogy that reaction is faith working in man's heart.

But you need the instruments in the control room to makes sure we know what is going on. Those instruments can be seen, they can be read, those are the works of faith and the labor of love.

Sure, everything about the nuclear reaction being everything is true, but only a complete idiot would build a nuclear reactor without instruments that tell you what is going on. You need both, faith and works.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We are blessed because we obey the Lord's voice

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Abraham was saved long before this event

Gen 15:
15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, [a]your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I [b]go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one[c] born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Like I said he refuses to receive any of this. James made it very clear, you can't show people your faith, you can only show them your works and he used the example of Abraham offering up his son.

What is the point of OSAS? You have no way of knowing if someone is saved because you have no way of knowing if they have believed. Therefore if you are buying this stuff you can easily be deceived as many are in these Mega Mason Churches.

However, you can see the faith by the works. Someone offers up their son, their only son, then that is very clear evidence that they believe in the resurrection.

For example, suppose you have a nuclear reactor. All the power, all the energy is coming from that nuclear reaction. You can't see that, in this analogy that reaction is faith working in man's heart.

But you need the instruments in the control room to makes sure we know what is going on. Those instruments can be seen, they can be read, those are the works of faith and the labor of love.

Sure, everything about the nuclear reaction being everything is true, but only a complete idiot would build a nuclear reactor without instruments that tell you what is going on. You need both, faith and works.

You have misrepresented james words.

He spoke to those who CLAIMED to have faith.. He never said they had faith, he said their faith was dead..

He also told them to test THERE own faith. not to test everyone else's faith

He also did not contradict paul (eph 2, rom 4, titus 3) and claim we are justified by works, He stated a truth. Abraham was justified in Gen 15. when he believed, But his faith was not dead. because many years later. he offered his son as a sacrifice.

true faith has works.

Dead faith does not

No one is saved by dead faith (mere belief)

 

[ZNP]

Abraham was saved long before this event

Gen 15:
15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, [a]your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I [b]go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one[c] born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Oh, I didn't realize you were having a problem reading. I did not say anything about him being saved, I said "blessed".

 

[ZNP]

You have misrepresented james words.

He spoke to those who CLAIMED to have faith.. He never said they had faith, he said their faith was dead..

He also told them to test THERE own faith. not to test everyone else's faith

He also did not contradict paul (eph 2, rom 4, titus 3) and claim we are justified by works, He stated a truth. Abraham was justified in Gen 15. when he believed, But his faith was not dead. because many years later. he offered his son as a sacrifice.

true faith has works.

Dead faith does not

No one is saved by dead faith (mere belief)

I didn't misrepresent. there are people claiming to be saved but don't have works. They are deceiving people. That is the point. What is a cult? they claim to have faith but they don't have works. You can't see if Manson, of Jim Jones or any of these cult leaders have faith and are saved. But you can see their works and know immediately they aren't.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Oh, I didn't realize you were having a problem reading. I did not say anything about him being saved, I said "blessed".

I read fine, the post before. You claimed you can not see who has belief and who does not. but you can see trust.. Since OSAS and salvation is context. put two and two together

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I didn't misrepresent. there are people claiming to be saved but don't have works. They are deceiving people. That is the point. What is a cult? they claim to have faith but they don't have works. You can't see if Manson, of Jim Jones or any of these cult leaders have faith and are saved. But you can see their works and know immediately they aren't.

You can't judge anyone salvation. You can not see their works.. its impossible. there will be people who have works but have no faith.. so trying to use works to determine a persons salvation is in error

James spoke to hearers not doers.. they are not saved.

But that does not count the many who were doers. but not because they have faith, but because they are trying to earn salvation (the religious)

James and paul spoke to 2 different groups. thats why they APPEAR to be contradicting each other when they do not

 

[ZNP]

I read fine, the post before. You claimed you can not see who has belief and who does not. but you can see trust.. Since OSAS and salvation is context. put two and two together

You can see trust is fully depicted in the story about Abraham, the angel of the Lord says the exact same thing, that after seeing Abraham offer his son he can see and he blessed him accordingly.

Believe what you want to believe, I have no interest in trying to convince you. All I know is you deny, diminish, and explain away every verse in the Bible. You misquote people. I say that Abraham was blessed because he obeyed and you respond he was saved before this event. Simply irrelevant to the context of that post or the discussion at hand.

I have never claimed that you aren't saved by faith. My point has always been that you need both faith and obedience to God's word. Anyone who denies this is rejecting the word of God.

I am pointing out that there are a whole lot of things that the OSAS crowd skims over like "being saved through fire and suffering loss". Here the point is if you want to be blessed and if you want to be a blessing to others you must obey the voice of God.

 

[ZNP]

An analogy of Salvation

Consider a car. If there is no carburetor there is no mixing of gas and air, and if there is no spark plug there is no explosion. In this analogy that explosion is faith. Mixing the gas and air is the hearing of faith that comes by the word of God. The written word in this analogy is the gasoline in the tank and the gas air mixture is the pneuma that is spoken to your heart. That spark that turns that word to faith is from the Spirit speaking to your heart. If you want to call that explosion in your pistons "salvation" that is fine. The car does not move without that explosion. You can't see it. It happens deep within the engine which is under the hood.

You could sit in the drivers seat and turn the wheel and step on the pedals and nothing will happen without that explosion in your pistons. This is what is meant that you are saved by faith not by works.

However, you can see the car moving, you can see the truck hauling stuff, you can see the Lord's will being done on earth as it is in heaven, this is the work being done by the car, evidence that there is that explosion going on in the pistons (faith).

Now who would want a car that didn't have steering wheel, or an accelerator or brake or guages that tell you the speed, gas tank, etc. Driving the car is the work of faith. You can tell me all you want about how great this car is, if I can't drive it then all your talk is nothing but a lie.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You can see trust is fully depicted in the story about Abraham, the angel of the Lord says the exact same thing, that after seeing Abraham offer his son he can see and he blessed him accordingly.

Believe what you want to believe, I have no interest in trying to convince you. All I know is you deny, diminish, and explain away every verse in the Bible. You misquote people. I say that Abraham was blessed because he obeyed and you respond he was saved before this event. Simply irrelevant to the context of that post or the discussion at hand.

I have never claimed that you aren't saved by faith. My point has always been that you need both faith and obedience to God's word. Anyone who denies this is rejecting the word of God.

I am pointing out that there are a whole lot of things that the OSAS crowd skims over like "being saved through fire and suffering loss". Here the point is if you want to be blessed and if you want to be a blessing to others you must obey the voice of God.

I have eternal life
I am saved by grace

You can teach how I am evil or missing the point on so many things all you want.

You can teach how you are not trying to earn your salvation all you want.

Your wrong in so much

Before you start judging people. you need to judge yourself

 

[ZNP]

I have eternal life
I am saved by grace

You can teach how I am evil or missing the point on so many things all you want.

You can teach how you are not trying to earn your salvation all you want.

Your wrong in so much

Before you start judging people. you need to judge yourself

I never said you were evil. Something is clearly wrong with your reading. (I suppose you could infer that I said Manson and Jim Jones were evil, I didn't use those words, but OK. And I suppose anyone who associates themselves with either Jim Jones or Manson could take offense at that. Basically what I did say is that mass murder is a work that exposes that this cult leader is not of God.)

 

[AndrewMorgan]

I'd like to repeat an old point: - From what certain people have said, it seems they believe that once someone believes that Christ has been risen, he is eternally saved no matter what happens afterwards. Suppose a man receives the words of salvation, but has no love for God and actively hates the idea that he's a sinner and is beholden to God. However, he believes the Gospel in the sense he believes it to be true. He then considers himself to have immunity.
He then sets about on a life of overt sin, laughing at God and encourages others to do the same. On his deathbed, he curses God for the thousandth time and dies.
Is he saved?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

An analogy of Salvation

Consider a car. If there is no carburetor there is no mixing of gas and air, and if there is no spark plug there is no explosion. In this analogy that explosion is faith. Mixing the gas and air is the hearing of faith that comes by the word of God. The written word in this analogy is the gasoline in the tank and the gas air mixture is the pneuma that is spoken to your heart. That spark that turns that word to faith is from the Spirit speaking to your heart. If you want to call that explosion in your pistons "salvation" that is fine. The car does not move without that explosion. You can't see it. It happens deep within the engine which is under the hood.

You could sit in the drivers seat and turn the wheel and step on the pedals and nothing will happen without that explosion in your pistons. This is what is meant that you are saved by faith not by works.

However, you can see the car moving, you can see the truck hauling stuff, you can see the Lord's will being done on earth as it is in heaven, this is the work being done by the car, evidence that there is that explosion going on in the pistons (faith).

Now who would want a car that didn't have steering wheel, or an accelerator or brake or guages that tell you the speed, gas tank, etc. Driving the car is the work of faith. You can tell me all you want about how great this car is, if I can't drive it then all your talk is nothing but a lie.

this is a poor explanation.

a more pure explanation would be we are lost in the ocean. Drowning, and without hope. we are poor in spirit (bankrupt) and if nothing is done we will drown. once we drown (die) we have no hope of salvation all hope is lost.

God in his love, has sent a savior. He is there begging with us, pleading with us, to let him save us.. But he will not force himself on us.

Sadly. many people do not realize they are drowning, and go on living as they always have.. they don't need a savior

yet others know they are drowning, But think they can still save themselves. or refuse in pride to allow the savior to save them. without their help. they have to add something to save themselves (we call these works)

still others say they believe the savior can save them, and they ask. but they do not really trust the savior.. so they ignore the savior and just go around playing like they are saved when they are not.

To those who actually sit still. stop working, and allow God to save them. God removed them from the water and the storm and puts them on dry land. These people are saved (completely) and they are adopted as Gods children. Out of appreciaion for what God did, They praise him, and they do things that are pleasing to him, because they are grateful for all God did removing them from certain death, and giving them eternal life. These people work. because God saved them, they are not out in the ocean drowing and trying to save themselves. because they have eternal life. it is based on this knowledge as john said, that they continue to believe and trust in him, because they KNOW where they came from.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'd like to repeat an old point: - From what certain people have said, it seems they believe that once someone believes that Christ has been risen, he is eternally saved no matter what happens afterwards. Suppose a man receives the words of salvation, but has no love for God and actively hates the idea that he's a sinner and is beholden to God. However, he believes the Gospel in the sense he believes it to be true. He then considers himself to have immunity.
He then sets about on a life of overt sin, laughing at God and encourages others to do the same. On his deathbed, he curses God for the thousandth time and dies.
Is he saved?

in this example

someone believed, But they did not have faith and did not repent.

was this person ever saved?

 

[Magenta]

I'd like to repeat an old point: - From what certain people have said, it seems they believe that once
someone believes that Christ has been risen, he is eternally saved no matter what happens afterwards.
Suppose a man receives the words of salvation, but has no love for God and actively hates the idea that
he's a sinner and is beholden to God. However, he believes the Gospel in the sense he believes it to be true.
He then considers himself to have immunity. He then sets about on a life of overt sin, laughing at God and
encourages others to do the same. On his deathbed, he curses God for the thousandth time and dies.
Is he saved?

Where is repentance in that scenario? Hint: Wholly absent.

Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30

 

[Mem]

I'd like to repeat an old point: - From what certain people have said, it seems they believe that once someone believes that Christ has been risen, he is eternally saved no matter what happens afterwards. Suppose a man receives the words of salvation, but has no love for God and actively hates the idea that he's a sinner and is beholden to God. However, he believes the Gospel in the sense he believes it to be true. He then considers himself to have immunity.
He then sets about on a life of overt sin, laughing at God and encourages others to do the same. On his deathbed, he curses God for the thousandth time and dies.
Is he saved?

So, to clarify, you've imagined a person realizing (or coming to a belief that) he is in need of a savior and that Savior is manifested in Jesus but hates Him and is ingrateful to Him so much that he lives in sin like there's no tomorrow and invites everyone to rebel with him? Could you give an example of what this person's confession would look like?
Would it be something like, "I hate being a sinner and needing a savior so I'm just going to sin all I can until I die?"

 

[ZNP]

So, to clarify, you've imagined a person realizing (or coming to a belief that) he is in need of a savior and that Savior is manifested in Jesus but hates Him and is ingrateful to Him so much that he lives in sin like there's no tomorrow and invites everyone to rebel with him? Could you give an example of what this person's confession would look like?
Would it be something like, "I hate needing a savior so I'm just going to sin all I can until I die?"

Sounds like some of these Tele evangelists and Mega Pastors and Prosperity gospel preachers.

It also sounds like Balaam

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

It also sounds like Jezebel

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So, to clarify, you've imagined a person realizing (or coming to a belief that) he is in need of a savior and that Savior is manifested in Jesus but hates Him and is ingrateful to Him so much that he lives in sin like there's no tomorrow and invites everyone to rebel with him? Could you give an example of what this person's confession would look like?
Would it be something like, "I hate being a sinner and needing a savior so I'm just going to sin all I can until I die?"

The book of Jude comes to mind