Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

and God is going to "open up their understanding" when their Bibles are "setting around collecting dust"????

One can read the bible everyday, all-day, but unless God by His Spirit Illuminates the understanding, it profits nothing

again, brightfame52, please explain what "spiritual insight" is required to understand what is written in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

we need Christ through His Spirit to open our understanding

intentionally obtuse.

Indepth spiritual insight is not required to understand the words written in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

A person either believes what is written or he/she rejects what is written.

However, if you teach folks you witness to that they will never understand Scripture, then you are teaching exactly what the adversary wants taught and you will see Bibles "setting around collecting dust" because (according to you) the Word of God is just "words written on paper".
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[reneweddaybyday]

You are the only one in this thread who advocates faith = law ... therefore, it is you who "present Faith its law keeping"

Again the way you communicate about Faith its law keeping.

Again, since you are the only one who keeps insisting "Faith its law keeping", it is you who is communicating "Faith its law keeping".

Yep

glad you finally acknowledged that.

Scripture clearly states that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

You deny this scripture

nope.

and advocate works !

the only one on this thread who "advocate works" would be the one who insists "Faith its law keeping"
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[reneweddaybyday]

You have again botched your reply in your Post #2635.

I am not going to respond to posts you submit where you include your statement in a quote in which it appears I made the statement. I will point out that you have botched your response, but I'm not going to take the time to figure out who said what.

You need to learn how to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
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[reneweddaybyday]

please address the point raised concerning John 1:12:

John 1:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

The Lord Jesus Christ clearly states that He gave power [the right, the privilege] to become the sons of God(vs 12) to those who did not reject Him (vs 11).

If they are already born again, they already are the sons of God. There would be no need for the Lord Jesus Christ to give them what they already have and are.

This has been addressed a thousand times

nope ... you have not addressed the issue. All you have done is continue to spout your "born again in order to believe the gospel through which one is born again" dogma.

And I understand why you cannot address the issue ... because that would mean you have to examine/assess your dogma and you are not ready to do that at this point in time. it's much easier for you to rewrite/manipulate Scripture so that it aligns with your erroneous dogma (which is improper interpretation of Scripture).
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[reneweddaybyday]

you just say anything I believe to hear yourself talk or to try and impress folks.

... like I said:

I could go on, but again, but like I said, moot point. You will never own up to your contradictory statements. You do not care that your dogma doesn't align with Scripture ... you just "say anything" in order to prop up your dogma (and then project your own behavior onto others who do not do what you claim).

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[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 5:10

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Prior to being born again, we were (past tense) enemies ... irreconcilable hostility toward God.

Once we are born again, we are (not past tense) reconciled.

The word "reconciled" is translated from Greek katallássō – decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

The one who is justified by faith (Rom 5:1) is no longer an enemy because he/she is now reconciled. Both parties are now reconciled.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Jn 12:19

19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world[kosmos] is gone after him.

You referencing this verse actually supports what I have been telling you concerning Thayer's because Thayer's states kosmos in this verse means "hyperbolically or loosely equivalent to the majority of men in a place, the multitude or mass (as we say the public)".

As far as John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2, Thayer's indicates the word kosmos means "the inhabitants of the world; ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race" and John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2 are specifically referenced under this definition of kosmos.

You claim that Thayer's definition #8 "any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort" is the definition of the word kosmos as used in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2. However, that is not what is shown in Thayer's. Thayer's specifically references definition #5 for John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2.

I'm not surprised that you misrepresent what is written in Thayer's though because you do the same with Scripture. Since it is clear you treat the Word of God so haphazardly, it's really no shock you do the same with other writings.
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[reneweddaybyday]

the one who is "judging" is the one who claims that "its my privilege to tell ya that they really don’t believe it at all !" ... and that would be none other than brightfame52 (Post 2329) as if you know what a person believes in his/her heart.

Again, since it appears you have again missed the point ... you cannot tell me or anyone else that they "really don’t believe [Scripture] at all !" just because I or anyone else do not hold to your manipulated version of Scripture.

Its the epitome of hypocrisy and pride to charge someone with judging someone, when you doing the very same thing

apparently you do not understand the difference between myself (and others) examining/scrutinizing your dogma and a personal attack ... which is what you did when you claimed it was your "privilege to tell ya that they really don’t believe it at all !" ... or your claim that I was "lying on you" and you finally acknowledged I was not "lying on you" because I had accurately represented your statements.

In examining your dogma, I never said you are not a believer or that you are not born again.

You not understanding the difference between scrutiny/examination of your dogma and a personal attack does not give you license to assert your outlandish accusations/personal attacks.

You and your law keeping faith

... "law keeping faith" ... more of your erroneous dogma you sling because you just "say anything" in order to prop up your dogma (and then project your own behavior onto others who do not do what you claim).

Scripture is quite clear faith ≠ works.

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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[reneweddaybyday]

oh brother ... more erroneous nonsense to prop up your erroneous dogma.

when will you stop and just believe Scripture as written by its Author????

Romans 5 is all about Gods elect

if that's the case, then

only the "elect" are considered "ungodly" ...
only the "elect" are considered "sinners" ...
only the "elect" are considered "enemies" ...


... just another example that you are the one who "just say anything ... to hear yourself talk or to try and impress folks"
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[reneweddaybyday]

What you refuse to acknowledge is that God Who justifies the ungodly imputes righteousness to the one who believes. The moment the person believes, he/she is no longer ungodly.

God imputed righteousness to them before they believed

that may be what your erroneous dogma tells you, but that is not what Scripture tells you:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth [present tense] on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.

The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, the believer is no longer ungodly.

When I pointed that fact out to you, your response was "Thats false" (Post 2514), even though you previously stated "its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly or in a ungodly state" (Post 910).

Right a believer has been delivered from a ungodly state

If no longer ungodly, then the believer is now justified / righteous. Righteousness is imputed to him/her the moment he/she believes.

justified = Greek dikaioó

righteous = Greek dikaioó

righteousness = Greek dikaiosynē

but he was justified before God, by the blood of Christ, before he became a believer

"before he became a believer", he was not "justified before God". Before he became a believer, he was ungodly.

According to Scripture, a person is not simultaneously justified and ungodly.

That your erroneous dogma considers a person to be simultaneously justified and ungodly is Scripturally unsound.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error and hold to Scripture.

And for you to insist that a person is simultaneously ungodly and justified / righteous is nothing but your continued manipulation of Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous dogma that the elect "are Justified while unregenerate" or the elect are "justified before faith, while being ungodly".

Thats correct, the elect were justified before they were regenerate

Intentionally obtuse / Scripturally unsound.

Before the believer is born again ("regenerate"), he/she is ungodly (not justified).

Whoever is secretly righteous by the death of Christ

... "secretly righteous" ... more made up erroneous dogma from the keyboard of brightfame52.

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.​

​

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.​

​

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html​

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[reneweddaybyday]

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ

nope ... this is nothing but your erroneous dogma that one is "regenerate" (born again) in order to believe the gospel by which we are born again.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Yes Justification[before God] is before Faith in Christ

133+ pages into this thread and all we have is your keyboard propping up your erroneous dogma to support your claim.

Scripture is clear in telling us when a person is justified:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


According to Rom 4:24, righteousness shall be imputed ... which renders your claim that righteousness was imputed at some distant point in the past Scripturally unsound.

The ones who are already Justified by the death of Christ, are caused to be born again

if they are "already Justified", then they are already "born again" so there would be no need for them to be "caused to be born again".

Because your dogma is in error, you keep insisting upon the need for a person to be born again in order to believe the gospel by which they are born again.

That is why I keep asking you how many times under your erroneous dogma must a person be born again before he/she is really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again.
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[reneweddaybyday]

You the one confused.

brightfame52 ... there is absolutely no need to accuse me (or anyone else for that matter) of being "confused" when I (or anyone else) bring to your attention the contradictory statements you make. I am not confused ... I asked for clarification concerning your contradictory statements.

That the confusion lies in your erroneous dogma does not equal me or others being "confused" when we point out the error in your dogma.

He regenerates that sinner, at the point technically he is no more ungodly

... and this is what I have been telling you for months now, brightfame52.

at the point technically he is no more ungodly, but a new creation, then he believes in Christ

The believer is not a "new creation in Christ" before he/she believes in Christ (i.e. is born again).

he understands that they were justified by the blood of Christ before they believed.

nope ... this is just more of your erroneous "born again in order to believe the gospel through which one is born again" dogma.




The rest of your Post 2651 is nothing but a botched up mess where you've included a comment made by me with a comment made by you in a quote as if I had made both statements.

You need to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
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[reneweddaybyday]

nope ... what I deny is your erroneous dogma that a descendant of Adam is "born Justified" or that a born again believer is "ungodly".

Every descendant of Adam is "ungodly" until the moment God imputes righteousness unto him or her. At that point, he or she is no longer "ungodly" because God has imputed righteous to him/her.

then sometimes in their lifetime God gives them new life which is regeneration, and with that Faith to believe the Gospel.

... regeneration = born again.

Since, according to you, "God gives them new life which is regeneration, and with that Faith to believe the Gospel", you've got them born again (regeneration) in order to "believe the Gospel" by which they are born again (regeneration).

You have got multiple "regenerations" and yet, according to your Post 2470, "one is only born again once".

According to Thayer's, righteousness ...

"denotes the state acceptable to God which becomes a sinner's possession through that faith by which he embraces the grace of God offered him in the expiatory death of Jesus Christ (see δικαιόω, 3 b.). In this sense ἡ δικαιοσύνη is used without an adjunct in Romans 4:5"

The grace of God is never offered ... the Justified ungodly sinner will be quickened to life, and given the Gift of Faith, and then they receive

On the one hand you claim "The grace of God is never offered"

On the other hand you claim "they then receive"

So one "receive" what is never "offered" ... got it

Is it Scriptural to teach that we can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???

I dont know what you talking about

You claim "those He died for" can "continue being ungodly sinners".

Yet Scripture tells us Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof (Rom 6:12).

So again I ask is it Scriptural to teach that we can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???
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[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52 ... you have again completely botched your Post 2654.

You need to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
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[reneweddaybyday]

how did the blood get there, brightfame52?

Exodus 12:7 And they [the children of Israel] shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Someone from each home had to take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post.

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

If no blood on the door posts, God's stated judgment would fall on that house.

That was just the type

Your response does not address the issue.

You specifically stated:

God passing over in Judgement and destruction is due to Him seeing the Blood of the slain lambs, not because of anything else

You claimed "God passing over" was due to "Him seeing the Blood" and was "not because of anything else".

However, it is clear from the record that the children of Israel had to take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post.

So, your claim is false. There was something else that was done on the part of the children of Israel before God "passing over in Judgement and destruction".

I dont know what the context is here, you didn't quote it properly

... the one who "didn't quote it properly" is you, brightfame52.

and you finally acknowledge there is a problem when you do not submit your posts properly.

In the future, please submit your posts properly so it is clear who said what.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

You just rejecting truth found in scripture

nope ... my pointing out that you have ripped a verse from its context in order to prop up your erroneous dogma does not equal me "rejecting" Scripture.

The Bible is the Word of God, literally "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16), and we are commanded to read, study, and understand it through the use of good Bible study methods and always with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide us (1 Corinthians 2:14). Our study is greatly enhanced by maintaining diligence in the use of context because it is quite easy to come to wrong conclusions by taking phrases and verses out of context. It is not difficult to point out places that seemingly contradict other portions of Scripture, but if we carefully look at their context and use the entirety of Scripture as a reference, we can understand the meaning of a passage. “Context is king” means that the context often drives the meaning of a phrase. To ignore context is to put ourselves at a tremendous disadvantage.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/context-Bible.html​

you then submitted this as if you had made both statements:

His resurrection is evidence that those He died for are Justified
nope. His resurrection is evidence that He is the Son of God ...

That is an example of what I mean when I claim that you have "botched your reply".

In addition to my pointing out your botched posts above, here are more posts submitted by you which I did not reply to because you "botched your reply":

brightfame52 Post 2639 – reply to Post 2612
brightfame52 Post 2640 – reply to Post 2613
brightfame52 Post 2643 – reply to Post 2616
brightfame52 Post 2644 – reply to Post 2618
brightfame52 Post 2646 – reply to Post 2620


You need to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.


Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
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[brightfame52]

Interesting ... the promise by God concerning Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ ... and all you're interested in is the seed of the serpent ...
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You not interested in all what God said ? He said it, so He considered it important !

 

[brightfame52]

nope ... from Day 1 of you claiming I submitted those words I have denied your claim and you have provided no post submitted by me wherein I made the claim.

Therefore, the only conclusion you may "draw on a fair basis" is that you are the only one on this thread who has submitted that statement.
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Your conviction that some people are unjust, lost and die in their sins in unbelief, who Christ died for, leaves no other conclusion but that Christs death for them was worthless, not redemptive, powerless to Justify and give faith.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling

the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

World there is gentiles, and also the world there has no sin imputed. That means it has righteouness imputed.

Where there is no imputation of sin, scripture declares righteousness has been imputed. Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So that world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a blessed world, with no sin imputed, and righteousness imputed.

So world there cannot be all men without exception, that would be universalism salvation which is also a false doctrine. Do you believe in universalism ?

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

In the NT, the word "atonement" is translated from the Greek word katallagē. In the above verse, the words "reconciling" and "reconciliation" are translated from forms of the Greek word katallagē.

You arent telling me anything I dont already know and understand. I dont believe you understand the word.

According to Thayer's, the word "world" in 2 Cor 5:19 means "the inhabitants of the world; particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race" (definition #5).

The word world means a lot of things in scripture.

Actually, those "not saved" have no excuse when they stand before God come judgment day:

They dont, they will have a lot to answer for since Christ didnt die for them and save them from their sins.

The ones who do not come to repentance reject that which God "grants" to them. It's not that they can't believe ... it's that they reject that which is to be believed, even though what is to be believed has been revealed to them

.

They dont come to repentance simply because Christ didnt die for them as their Saviour. The people who Christ died for He as their Saviour gives them repentance and remission of sins Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.