RAPTURE

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible says nothing about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, at ANY TIME.

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Let's look at the context.

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In v.1 Jesus was encouraging His disciples to "keep the faith".

In v.2, Jesus was assuring the 11 that they DID have a place in heaven. iow, He was guaranteeing eternal security. Esp after the deal with Judas. They may have been shaken in their own faith. Also, v.2 was fulfilled AFTER the resurrection and ascension, when Jesus DID go back to heaven.

In v.3 Jesus is referring to the Second Advent. And note what He said: "and take you to be with Me".

Jesus did NOT say "and take you to heaven with Me". The words are clear. There is no mention of going to heaven.

In fact, by the time Jesus will come back, He will "take" His 11, plus every other dead saint with Him to earth for the resurrection.

So this passage does not teach a rapture with a trip to heaven.

 

[oyster67]

So you didn't read 2 Thes 1 then?

Fair enough.
What part of 2 Thess 1 would you like to talk about?

2 Thessalonians 1:

1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul told us to look for Jesus' return in flaming fire.

And Revelation too.

I am pointing out some of the pretrib inconsistencies.

Perceived inconsistencies. You must realize that pre-trib seems completely consistent to me. It is "post-trib" that seems inconsistent to me. So many high hurdles and work-arounds needed to keep this post-trib stuff alive (eg. Placing the wedding on Earth.) Why should I spend my time jousting other people's ideas when Scripture is so clear - that we, the Bride, experience a rapture, glorification, wedding, putting on of robes, and then a triumphant return with Jesus to reign with Him on Earth. Going up and down at the same time is such an odd contrivance.

There isn't any any scriptural back up to the assertion that 'the rapture is not the second coming"

You may consider the Time of the Second Coming as two events within the space of 7 years. I have no problem with that.

No one ever had a mandate to tear the events of the 2nd coming in two.

"tear"? Really? We wouldn't want to couch it in terms of "two stages". No drama in that. (I'm sure I have done the same thing, but it is good to check each other.)

The pretribulation rapture narrative requires 2 returns of Jesus.
1 to collect the saints
2 to visibly return with the saints

Only once does he come down to Earth. (The clouds and sky are the first Heaven.)

Whoever has died in The Lord dwells in heaven now. Can you aknowledge this please?

Sure, but not with glorified bodies. We shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The bodies will be raised and changed. No disputing that.

The pretribulation rapture requires 2 comings of deceased saints
1 to ressurect their bodies then u-turn back to heaven for a wedding
2 to return from heaven to earth with Jesus a second time.

Yes! But only one coming to Earth to reign with Jesus.

It is good to peacefully discuss. Please don't get angry like so many others. I really do feel that all the pieces mesh. That is my perception. I really don't have any doubts, but I do respect you as a person.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

AFTER The tribulation of those days Matt 24:29

The resurrection AT THE LAST DAY John 11:24

AT THE LAST trumpet 1 Cor 15:52

WHEN Jesus REVEALED 2 Thes 1

WHEN death has been swallowed up 1 Cor 15:54

AFTER the man of sin is revealed 2 Thes 2:3

WHEN the Lord comes down with a command and a trumpet call 1 Thes 4:16

AT The coming of Our Lord 2 Thes 2:1


These verses tell us when the resurrection occurs. It cannot be positioned before the tribulation according to scripture.
Pretrib does not stand up to Biblical scrutiny. It only exists within itself because it is man's doctrine.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Fair enough.
What part of 2 Thess 1 would you like to talk about?

The part I already posted in #94 which tells us explicitly that the rapture occurs AT the second coming.
Reposted below.


6 seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you
was believed in that day.
~ 2 Thess 1



The resurrection & rapture vs 10 happens at the second coming vs 7-8

Paul wrote that is when God would take vengeance vs 8

God doesn't take vengeance & recompense the tribulation of the saints before the tribulation.

 

[oyster67]

The part I already posted in #94 which tells us explicitly that the rapture occurs AT the second coming.
Reposted below.


6 seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you
was believed in that day.
~ 2 Thess 1



The resurrection & rapture vs 10 happens at the second coming vs 7-8

Paul wrote that is when God would take vengeance vs 8

God doesn't take vengeance & recompense the tribulation of the saints before the tribulation.

2 Thess 1 does not say what the post-tribbers want it to say. It speaks of God's wrath upon the enemy, not the Church. Christ will be glorified in His Saints when He returns to Earth with them at the beginning of His reign upon Earth. That is not the time of the Rapture. I have seen nothing that supports a post-trib rapture. It is neither logical nor rational nor Biblical. Please do not take offence. I just don't think post-trib rapture ideas mesh with Scripture.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

2 Thess 1 does not say what the post-tribbers want it to say. It speaks of God's wrath upon the enemy, not the Church. Christ will be glorified in His Saints when He returns to Earth with them at the beginning of His reign upon Earth. That is not the time of the Rapture. I have seen nothing that supports a post-trib rapture. It is neither logical nor rational nor Biblical. Please do not take offence. I just don't think post-trib rapture ideas mesh with Scripture.

When did I say that the wrath of God is on the saints?? I don't believe that and I didn't say it.
I showed the opposite. That God's vengeance is delivered to his enemies, those who trouble the siants.

6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

The next event according to Paul in the above passage is Jesus' return with vengeance in flaming fire.
Where is there space for a pretrib rapture & a lengthy heavenly wedding in this?
**
Jesus is certainly glorified in his saints when they are resurrected with immortal bodies . ↓

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship,
the redemption of our bodies.
~Rom 8

 

[Runningman]

On the way to work one day, I didn’t see many cars on the road. Got to thinking about it and wondered if the rapture had happened.

When I got to work I told my supervisor, “well you’re still here so I guess I’m good. I thought I got left behind in the rapture” to which he smiled and chuckled warmly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Thess 1 does not say what the post-tribbers want it to say. It speaks of God's wrath upon the enemy, not the Church. Christ will be glorified in His Saints when He returns to Earth with them at the beginning of His reign upon Earth. That is not the time of the Rapture. I have seen nothing that supports a post-trib rapture. It is neither logical nor rational nor Biblical. Please do not take offence. I just don't think post-trib rapture ideas mesh with Scripture.

2 Thess 2:1 says this: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

The red words refer to the Second Advent.

The blue words refer to the living believers at the resurrection described in 1 Thess 4-
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And note that neither passage mentions a trip to heaven in glorified bodies.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Thess 1 does not say what the post-tribbers want it to say. It speaks of God's wrath upon the enemy, not the Church.

Right ... and that "wrath" will be unfolding OVER A SPANS OF TIME leading up to His "return" to the earth.

So, "in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those..." refers to a spans of time (just like "in flaming fire" does in Lam2:3-4 also; and just like "AVENGE in quickness" [Lk18:8] corresponds with the "things which must come to pass in quickness" that Rev1:1 refers to when speaking of the things John was going to be "SHOWn" 4:1 / 1:19c--the "future" aspects of the Revelation, i.e. the 7-yr Tribulation period, aka the Seals / Trumpets / Vials); It is not referring (in 2Th1) merely to what commences at or occurs only on the 24-hr day of His return to the earth at Rev 19. No.





[Let the readers also compare the similar language between 2Th2:7b-8a to that of Lam2:3-4]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[Let the readers also compare the similar language between 2Th2:7b-8a to that of Lam2:3-4]

--"the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he become [/ come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that wicked be revealed..." 2Th2:7b-8a (which is at the START of the 7-yr period, not at its MID-point 2Th2:4<--not then);

--"he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy..." (in effect saying, "have at 'em!" i.e lifting his restraint), Lam2:3-4 (a context surrounded by "wrath" words; again, stating "in flaming fire" in this text also)



____________


So that 2Th1 text states, "rest with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those..."

 

[oyster67]

When did I say that the wrath of God is on the saints?? I don't believe that and I didn't say it.

I agree. The Church will not endure the wrath of God during the Tribulation. The "Tribulation Saints" are those who were not in the Church at the time of Rapture. Many will be Jews. The Trib is also known as "The Time of Jacobs Troubles."

I showed the opposite. That God's vengeance is delivered to his enemies, those who trouble the siants.

Yes. Amen. God's wrath is poured out during the tribulation period upon those who rejected His Son.

2 Thess 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

The next event according to Paul in the above passage is Jesus' return with vengeance in flaming fire.

Yes. The trib will culminate with this, and we will accompany Him at His return to Earth with our white robes we received in Heaven.

Where is there space for a pretrib rapture & a lengthy heavenly wedding in this?

Seven years.

Jesus is certainly glorified in his saints when they are resurrected with immortal bodies .

Yes, and will be glorified by them for all eternity.

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship,
the redemption of our bodies.
~Rom 8

Amen! We agree on the important stuff.

 

[presidente]

​

Did I miss it again? ​

Has anyone pulled a 'left behind' rapture prank, to scare a backslider?

A friend of mine said when he was a kid and couldn't find anyone around, he was afraid he'd been left behind.

 

[presidente]

--"the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he become [/ come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that wicked be revealed..." 2Th2:7b-8a (which is at the START of the 7-yr period, not at its MID-point 2Th2:4<--not then);

--"he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy..." (in effect saying, "have at 'em!" i.e lifting his restraint), Lam2:3-4 (a context surrounded by "wrath" words; again, stating "in flaming fire" in this text also)



____________


So that 2Th1 text states, "rest with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those..."

Do you have any reason to either treat the coming of Jesus as a longer time period than one literal event, or else as two comings? Do you have a Biblical reason to not consider the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24 as the same event?

 

[presidente]

Has anyone pulled a 'left behind' rapture prank, to scare a backslider?

A friend of mine said when he was a kid and couldn't find anyone around, he was afraid he'd been left behind.

Uh-oh, apparently it is a genre of YouTube prank:

 

[JaumeJ]

On the way to work one day, I didn’t see many cars on the road. Got to thinking about it and wondered if the rapture had happened.

When I got to work I told my supervisor, “well you’re still here so I guess I’m good. I thought I got left behind in the rapture” to which he smiled and chuckled warmly.

When Jesus Yeshua returns, every eye shall see Him. Therefore, no matter how few peopleseem to be about, you hanve not missed His return. God bless you always.

 

[oyster67]

Do you have any reason to either treat the coming of Jesus as a longer time period than one literal event, or else as two comings? Do you have a Biblical reason to not consider the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24 as the same event?

We go up in the Rapture with those who have died in Christ.
We soon meet up with our headless brethren who waited until after the rapture to come to Jesus.
We get our Glorified bodies.
We are dressed in white linen which is the righteousness of the Saints.
We participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb (Jesus). We, the Church, are the Bride.
We return back to Earth with Him at the completion of the 7-year Tribulation.

We can call all of that the time of the Second Coming, or we can call it two events. The facts remain the same. If there is some part of this you don't understand, just study 1 Thess 4 and Revelation 19. This has already been hashed and rehashed many times. No matter what position we take, one thing remains a constant: We want to be ready and have our lamps trimmed and burning at all times. God bless.

 

[presidente]

We go up in the Rapture with those who have died in Christ.
We soon meet up with our headless brethren who waited until after the rapture to come to Jesus.
We get our Glorified bodies.
We are dressed in white linen which is the righteousness of the Saints.
We participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb (Jesus). We, the Church, are the Bride.
We return back to Earth with Him at the completion of the 7-year Tribulation.

Do you have any scripture at all that indicates that we get raptured seven years before Jesus comes back again? Matthew 24 tells of the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect AFTER the tribulation. Compare with II Thessalonians 1 where it speaks of the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him.

In I Thessalonians 4, we meet the Lord _at the coming of the Lord_ at which He actually descends from heaven (as opposed to just staying there) the dead in Christ rise and we that are alive and remain are raptured. In II Thessalonians 2, the man of sin passage, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. What reason is there to see this as multiple events? If the coming of the Lord is a 7-year-time period, isn't that treating the term about as loosely as the preterists do?

We can call all of that the time of the Second Coming, or we can call it two events. The facts remain the same. If there is some part of this you don't understand, just study 1 Thess 4 and Revelation 19. This has already been hashed and rehashed many times.

Rehashing it doesn't put any evidence for pre-trib into the passages that were not there to begin with. Is there any specific verse in these passages that says anything to support a pre-trib rapture?

No matter what position we take, one thing remains a constant: We want to be ready and have our lamps trimmed and burning at all times. God bless.

Yes, let's do that.

 

[oyster67]

Matthew 24 tells of the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering of the elect AFTER the tribulation.

Yes, and they are gathered from throughout heaven where they have been through the time of the trib. They are in Heaven because they were raptured up earlier.
Matthew 24:31
“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

They will descend from Heaven with Him at this time to reign on Earth for the next 1000 years.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

The rapture is a going up. The return is a coming down.

Rehashing it doesn't put any evidence for pre-trib into the passages that were not there to begin with. Is there any specific verse in these passages that says anything to support a pre-trib rapture?

Rehashing it doesn't put any evidence for post-trib into the passages that were not there to begin with. Is there any specific verse in these passages that says anything to support a post-trib rapture?

We go up before we come down. That is what the Bible says. The post-trib rapture has no going up, so why do you bother calling it a rapture? (I know why - it's because post tribbers are stuck with the going up language of 1 Thess 4.)

 

[DavidTree]

The rapture is not nonsense its our blessed hope , as the scriptures say.

Believing a lie is your "blessed hope"???

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, and they are gathered from throughout heaven where they have been through the time of the trib. They are in Heaven because they were raptured up earlier.
Matthew 24:31
“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

They will descend from Heaven with Him at this time to reign on Earth for the next 1000 years.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

The rapture is a going up. The return is a coming down.


Rehashing it doesn't put any evidence for post-trib into the passages that were not there to begin with. Is there any specific verse in these passages that says anything to support a post-trib rapture?

We go up before we come down. That is what the Bible says. The post-trib rapture has no going up, so why do you bother calling it a rapture? (I know why - it's because post tribbers are stuck with the going up language of 1 Thess 4.)

Where does it say in the scriptures that those in Heaven (Revelation) were raptured?