RAPTURE

[soberxp]

Your posts make it look like you are confused.

People can be confused for a long time for some people's nonsense, such as raptrue.

If you want fly to sky, You can go to the universe by rocket.

But it's not like Superman flying up from the ground to the air and leaving this annoying world to heaven.

If predecessors can get resurrection through death, why should we skip the word "death" as if it does not exist in reality.

It's like someone said he would give you tens of millions of dollars, but didn't say who he would give it to? Who believes that?

 

[lawrence101]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why would John write "who ARE INVITED to the wedding supper" if it had already occurred 7 years before?

OK, so you believe that the wedding supper will occur "when He comes" back at the resurrection, as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

however, there is no "rapture", meaning a glorified trip to heaven.
The text states, "those HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect participle]"... meaning, "action completed at a specific point of time in PAST (.) with results continuing into the present (--->)" ; which tells us that at the Rev19 point in the chronology, all the "INVITING" (of the plural "guestS") has been completed.

OK, all you are pointing out is that the invitation has already been given. It says nothing about the actual event has already having occurred. And looking through all the various translations on biblehub.com ALL of them are rendered "ARE invited/called".

So even though the invitation has already occurred doesn't mean the event has already occurred.

All the translators viewed v.9 as an event that was about to occur, which would be "when He comes" back to earth.


I agree that none of the living believers on earth "when He comes" will be taken to heaven, but the Bible does use the words "caught up" and "gathered together" to indicate that the living believers will be lifted off the earth to meet Jesus and the dead believers from heaven "when He comes" back. And, of course, the whole host will then continue down to earth.[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why would John write "who ARE INVITED to the wedding supper" if it had already occurred 7 years before?

Right. We agree on that. My point is directly at the pre-tribbers.

You have a mute point there post-tribber.

 

[lawrence101]

People can be confused for a long time for some people's nonsense, such as raptrue.

If you want fly to sky, You can go to the universe by rocket.

But it's not like Superman flying up from the ground to the air and leaving this annoying world to heaven.

If predecessors can get resurrection through death, why should we skip the word "death" as if it does not exist in reality.

It's like someone said he would give you tens of millions of dollars, but didn't say who he would give it to? Who believes that?

The rapture is not nonsense its our blessed hope , as the scriptures say.

 

[soberxp]

The rapture is not nonsense its our blessed hope , as the scriptures say.

So if you can't fly from the ground and Jesus has coming, are you dead now?

Or if you can't fly from the ground all life long, are you not saved?

Or if when the second coming, believers will fly into sky and goes to heaven，if you really believe it, Why should we take out the incident of a few people and tell everyone that they can fly?

 

[soberxp]

I believe I can fly______Order a song for you to comfort your gullible heart

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The rapture is not nonsense its our blessed hope , as the scriptures say.

Our blessed hope is the return of Jesus. The second coming. That's what the Scripture says. The focus is on him.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" ~Tit 2:13

 

[soberxp]

Do not imagine anything in heaven and on earth for yourself.


This is a warning for you,
a bunch of extremist religious fanatic

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What evidence is there to presume that this verse is about something that occurs before the Tribulation?

But more than that. Tere is only 1 resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Dan 12:2, Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:4,5

Since we know from Rev 20 that the FIRST resurrection will be for saved martyrs, and there is mention of a second resurrection 1,000 years later, which is obviously the GWT judgment, that single resurrection for believers will be "when He comes" back, per 1 Cor 15:23.

This is all very straight forward. The Bible never speaks of phases of resurrection, or multiples of them. Only 1.

In fact, the word "resurrections" does not occur in Scripture regarding the saved. It treats resurrection of the saved the same way as resurrection of the unsaved. 1 each.

Your posts make it look like you are confused.

OK, here is what I posted. What do you see as "looking confused"?

Rather, maybe it is you who are confused about the resurrection. Do you believe there are more than 1 resurrection of the saved?

If so, could you provide the verses that show this?

I gave a number of verses (7) that support my belief. Did these verses confuse you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

OK, all you are pointing out is that the invitation has already been given. It says nothing about the actual event has already having occurred. And looking through all the various translations on biblehub.com ALL of them are rendered "ARE invited/called".

So even though the invitation has already occurred doesn't mean the event has already occurred.

All the translators viewed v.9 as an event that was about to occur, which would be "when He comes" back to earth.


I agree that none of the living believers on earth "when He comes" will be taken to heaven, but the Bible does use the words "caught up" and "gathered together" to indicate that the living believers will be lifted off the earth to meet Jesus and the dead believers from heaven "when He comes" back. And, of course, the whole host will then continue down to earth.

All of this came from one of my posts. Are you confused about how to format your own posts?

You have a mute point there post-tribber.

OK, pre-tribber, what verse or verses demonstrates Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? Do you have any, or are you just going on what others have taught you?

Be a Berean and do your own research, as they did. Then show me the verses that SAY what pre-tribbers SAY.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The rapture is not nonsense its our blessed hope , as the scriptures say.

Please provide any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

That would prove that the pre-trib claim about the "rapture" isn't nonsense.

Actual evidence. Like what the Bereans searched for when Paul preached to them. And that's what I do.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 is clearly a rapture event and is clearly not about us returning back to Earth with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I can't believe that The Lord Himself coming down from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet
call of God is anything other than the second coming.

It's also difficult for me to ignore that the dead in Christ rising first are those who are returning from heaven with Jesus
to receive their immortal bodies. That is exactly what resurrection is.

Is there a scripture which says that those who retrun with Jesus in 1 Thess 4 go back again to heaven and return a second
time at a third coming of Jesus to earth?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is there a scripture which says that those who retrun with Jesus in 1 Thess 4 go back again to heaven and return a second time at a third coming of Jesus to earth?

That is the question! And pre-tribbers know they have no verses that say this.

 

[oyster67]

Is there a scripture which says that those who retrun with Jesus in 1 Thess 4 go back again to heaven and return a second
time at a third coming of Jesus to earth?

I believe that Revelation 19 has all the believers travelling down from Heaven with Jesus at His Second Coming. We have received our fine white linen in Heaven before the Second coming. Much has been happening with us in Heaven before the Second Coming. This does not jive with post-Trib rapture theory. I do not believe that it is only the beheaded Trib saints who receive robes and return with Jesus. I believe we all return with Him.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I believe that Revelation 19 has all the believers travelling down from Heaven with Jesus at His Second Coming. We have received our fine white linen in Heaven before the Second coming. Much has been happening with us in Heaven before the Second Coming. This does not jive with post-Trib rapture theory. I do not believe that it is only the beheaded Trib saints who receive robes and return with Jesus. I believe we all return with Him.

I understand. An extra coming of Jesus is inserted into the narrative. And and extra return to earth of the saints.
There is no other way to make pretrib work. There is not one scripture to back up that view though.

We are waiting for the return of Jesus according to Paul.


6 seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you
was believed in that day.
~ 2 Thess 1



The resurrection & rapture vs 10 happens at the second coming vs 7-8

Paul wrote that is when God would take vengeance vs 8

God doesn't take vengeance & recompense the tribulation of the saints before the tribulation.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Yup, 1 Thess 4 imo clearly shows the Rapture is Post-Trib, not Pre-Trib. Why? It even says the Rapture happens AFTER the Resurrection of the Saints, so the Rapture is not only Post-Tribulation, at the Second Coming, but Post Resurrection (of saints). Here is the passage.

1 Thess 4:

[14] For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede them who have slept. [15] For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.

[16] Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. [17] Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.

 

[oyster67]

An extra coming of Jesus is inserted into the narrative.

No. The Rapture is not the Second Coming. We go up. We are raptured up.

And and extra return to earth of the saints.

No. We return to Earth once, at the Second Coming.

How did you think pre-trib worked?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

No. The Rapture is not the Second Coming. We go up. We are raptured up.


No. We return to Earth once, at the Second Coming.

How did you think pre-trib worked?

So you didn't read 2 Thes 1 then?

Pretrib shouldn't be the main focus. Scripture is the yardstick. Paul told us to look for Jesus' return in flaming fire.
I am pointing out some of the pretrib inconsistencies. Perhaps you haven't considered them.

There isn't any any scriptural back up to the assertion that 'the rapture is not the second coming"
No one ever had a mandate to tear the events of the 2nd coming in two.

You can not continue to brush these inconsistencies aside:

The pretribulation rapture narrative requires 2 returns of Jesus.
1 to collect the saints
2 to visibly return with the saints

Whoever has died in The Lord dwells in heaven now. Can you aknowledge this please?

The pretribulation rapture requires 2 comings of deceased saints
1 to ressurect their bodies then u-turn back to heaven for a wedding
2 to return from heaven to earth with Jesus a second time.

 

[soberxp]

No. The Rapture is not the Second Coming. We go up. We are raptured up.


No. We return to Earth once, at the Second Coming.

How did you think pre-trib worked?

Since you said it wasn't the Second Coming.
Holy nonsense, of course we will meet Jesus in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. The Rapture is not the Second Coming. We go up. We are raptured up.

Then where? That's the issue.

Traditional "rapture" teaching is that Jesus takes the glorified believers up to heaven before the Tribulation, hence "pre-trib".

No. We return to Earth once, at the Second Coming.

How did you think pre-trib worked?

How does anyone know how the theory works. The Bible says nothing about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, at ANY TIME.

 

[oyster67]

The Bible says nothing about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, at ANY TIME.

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”