Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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ZNP

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Do you have a verse that says this? I say you don't. This is your opinion, or the opinion of your pastor, but the Bible does NOT say that..
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

According to you there is no need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins because Jesus death already paid the price for sins. Jesus blood will cleanse you from all your sins, but you have to repent and you also need to be baptized. Our baptism is likened to Noah's ark going through the flood. According to Genesis 6:14 the ark was pitched within and without with pitch. When you are baptized your are being dipped within and without into the triune God. When the flood came if you were not in the ark you were destroyed. Yes the judgement came because

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

You don't have to be an adulterer, simply have your mind set on adultery day and night.

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

You will be judged for your thoughts. Are you playing Grand Theft Auto all day, well then your thoughts are on stealing and violence all day. Are you watching pornography, then your have committed fornication and adultery in your heart.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


How do we know if you have received the gospel? You were baptized. That is what it means to receive the work that Jesus did. You obey His command and the first command is to be baptized.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?


This case demonstrates that baptism was a critical component of receiving the work that Jesus did on the cross.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

If you have not been baptized into Jesus Christ you have not been baptized into His death, your flesh is still ruling and reigning. You can cleanse your sins in the blood but to solve the problem you need to put to death your members and that involves obeying Jesus and that starts with being immersed into the triune God.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We are supposed to walk in newness of life. That only happens if we are immersed into Jesus death, burial and resurrection. That only happens if you obey the Lord and walk by faith to obey His commands.

1Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

You must be baptized to enter into the body of Christ, and to drink of the one Spirit. Salvation doesn't just mean that 20 years ago you had your sins forgiven, it means that you walk in newness of life, that you are in the Body of Christ, that you drink of one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This is what it means to be a Christian, when people see you they see you wearing Christ. You have to put on clothes daily. This is not a once for all thing.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is a figure, and it saves us. It is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, it is you responding to the Lord's work of redemption out of good conscience, saying that Jesus is Lord because you believe He rose from the dead.
 

ZNP

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Why would anyone who is in Christ insist Jesus died to seal for eternity his promise of eternal salvation is bunk? :rolleyes:

Conditional salvation isn't salvation.
It's damnation wrapped in a Satanic lie. It is the insecurity, the anti-faith that one who is damned believes in as needing to labor to see heaven. They never shall. .
You tell us that "conditional salvation isn't salvation" and yet you show us a picture of Noah's ark where the only way you got saved from the flood was if you entered the ark. That is by definition "conditional salvation"
 

ZNP

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Here's the thing. NONE of those 1,000 verses teach what you claim they teach. You simply misunderstand them.

John 5:24 and 10:28 prove your claim is wrong, unbiblical.

Eternal life is received WHEN one believes in Christ per John 5:24 and the result of possessing eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish, per John 10:28.

Now, since you disagree, you need to address each of these 2 very clear verses that anyone can read and understand and show me where my error is.
John 10:28 has 3 conditions:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1. You must hear the Lord's voice

2. The Lord must know you

3. You must follow the Lord.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We have to hear the word of God so that it becomes faith in us. Second, we must have a relationship with the Lord. There are people who will think they are saved but the Lord will say "I never knew you". The Lord also says this to the foolish virgins who don't have oil in their lamp. When you spend time with the Lord every day He will not be able to say He doesn't know you and your vessel will be filled with oil. Finally, you must follow the Lord. That means take up your cross and follow Him. It means when He says "go and do likewise" about the story of the Good samaritan that you go and do likewise.

Only after those three conditions are met does it say "and I give unto them eternal life"
 

ZNP

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So, the only question now is, when does one receive eternal life?

Jesus already answered that in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

The red words are the means of receiving the gift of eternal life. The blue words is the result of believing.
John 5:24 is spoken in context of John 5.

1. The chapter begins with Jesus healing a paralytic man, Jesus spoke the word to him, the paralytic man believed, he then rose up and took his bed and walked. However, it was on the sabbath day and the Jews tried to condemn him for carrying his bed on the sabbath day, but here in 5:24 the Lord says that he "will not be judged but has crossed from death to life". John 5:24 is clearly a continuation of the story at the beginning of the chapter.

But after that story you have to read verse 14

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.


So if he received eternal life as signified by his being able to take up his bed and walk, how could "a worse thing come unto thee"? You are claiming that John 5:24 is saying he received eternal salvation and therefore "a worse thing cannot come upon him".

This is what happens when you make an entire doctrine on one verse and don't even read the whole chapter.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You said:
"Yes, Jesus blood has the power to cleanse every person's sin regardless how heinous and how horrible, but you have to receive it."

So I asked:
"Do you have a verse that says this? I say you don't. This is your opinion, or the opinion of your pastor, but the Bible does NOT say that.

2 Cor 5:19 refutes that opinion."
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This verse doesn't say what you claim it says. And 2 Cor 5:19 says this:
"that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."

iow, Jesus died for everyone, whether they believe in Him or not. By His death, Jesus removed the sin barrier between every human and God.

No one "receives the blood of Jesus". You are using poor words to describe the reality: Jesus died for everyone.

According to you there is no need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins because Jesus death already paid the price for sins.
Please pay close attention this time. I'm tired of your FALSE words being forced into my mouth.

I believe exactly what Paul told the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. "Believe on the Lord Lesus, and you WILL BE SAVED".

What Peter said in v.38 actually follows what the crowd already did.
v.37 - When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

The bolded words show that they were convicted by what they did which shows that they did believe what Peter told them about Jesus. iow, they believed in v.37, and their question proves it.

So v.38 isn't about salvation. It is about changing their lifestyle by being publicly baptized in Jesus' Name and they would receive the Holy Spirit. Remember that this was at the very beginning of the church age and the giving of the Holy Spirit occurred in several different ways between Jews and Gentiles. But by the time Paul wrote Gal 3:2,5, everyone who believes receives the Holy Spirit.

So, Acts 2:38 is a very poor verse to use currently. You'd be much better served to such verses as John 3:16, Acts 16:31, etc. If you are interested in being accurate.

Jesus blood will cleanse you from all your sins, but you have to repent and you also need to be baptized.
The baptism that saves (1 Peter 3:21) is referring to the Holy Spirit, which is clearly described in Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

So your view about being baptized is 'all wet'. Water baptism symbolizes (1 Pet 3:21) our Spirit baptism.

Our baptism is likened to Noah's ark going through the flood.
Really? That's interesting, because Noah kep DRY from the literal water, but no one stays dry in Christian baptism.

You are reading 1 Pet 3:21 in error.


According to Genesis 6:14 the ark was pitched within and without with pitch.
Right. God didn't want Noah's ark to sink.

When you are baptized your are being dipped within and without into the triune God.
That is just your warm fuzzy sentiment. Not biblical.

When the flood came if you were not in the ark you were destroyed.
Right! Drowned IN the WATER. 1 Pet 3:20-21 says Noah +7 were saved THROUGH the water. Not "IN" the water. Or "BY" the water.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Here's the thing. NONE of those 1,000 verses teach what you claim they teach. You simply misunderstand them.

John 5:24 and 10:28 prove your claim is wrong, unbiblical.

Eternal life is received WHEN one believes in Christ per John 5:24 and the result of possessing eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish, per John 10:28.

Now, since you disagree, you need to address each of these 2 very clear verses that anyone can read and understand and show me where my error is.
John 10:28 has 3 conditions:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


1. You must hear the Lord's voice
2. The Lord must know you
3. You must follow the Lord.
Your notions about John 10:28 are ALL WET, just as your notion about 1 Peter 3:21 is all wet.

Do you not understand what a "condition" is, and how it is expressed?? Generally, they are "IF....THEN" type of sentences.

Show me the exact words that create a condition in v.27 that applies to v.28. You will NOT be able to do so, because v.27 isn't a condition at all, but rather, a DESCRIPTION of what His sheep DO, or better yet, OUGHT TO DO.

Are you able to discern between a DESCRIPTION and CONDITION? Hopefully, you can. Otherwise, there is no use in further discussion.

Only after those three conditions are met does it say "and I give unto them eternal life"
Which translation are you using where you are seeing the word "only after these conditions are met..."?? I can't any translation that has any of those words.

Let me help you out here.

v.28 is a simple statement of cause and effect. What's the subject? Having eternal life.

So, what is the CAUSE of having eternal life? Jesus gives it to the person.

Now, what is the EFFECT of being given eternal life? The recipient shall never perish.

All that you've said about John 10:28 totally misses the mark by a mile or light-year.

You have some serious reading issues.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
So, the only question now is, when does one receive eternal life?

Jesus already answered that in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

The red words are the means of receiving the gift of eternal life. The blue words is the result of believing.
John 5:24 is spoken in context of John 5.
How 'bout that!

1. The chapter begins with Jesus healing a paralytic man, Jesus spoke the word to him, the paralytic man believed, he then rose up and took his bed and walked. However, it was on the sabbath day and the Jews tried to condemn him for carrying his bed on the sabbath day, but here in 5:24 the Lord says that he "will not be judged but has crossed from death to life". John 5:24 is clearly a continuation of the story at the beginning of the chapter.
Sorry, but your reading skills are getting in your way of understanding anything.

The healing of the cripple is v.1-15. Then, v.16-30 is about the authority of the Son, a different subject. Finally, v.31-47 are testimonies about the Son.

So the healing of the cripple is not in any way related to John 5:24. Apparently you haven't read the verse, or read it correctly.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Red word means anyone, so obviously Jesus has moved on from the cripple.
Blue words refer to hearing and believing the gospel.
Orange words refer to the present tense POSSESSION of eternal life on the basis of believing the gospel.
Purple words refer to the future tense promising NO judgment for one who possesses eternal life.
Green words refer to the past tense which is about crossing from spiritual death to spiritual and eternal life.

But after that story you have to read verse 14

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

So if he received eternal life as signified by his being able to take up his bed and walk, how could "a worse thing come unto thee"? You are claiming that John 5:24 is saying he received eternal salvation and therefore "a worse thing cannot come upon him".

This is what happens when you make an entire doctrine on one verse and don't even read the whole chapter.
Says you. So I had to "school' you on the whole chapter, which you obviously had no clue about.

It may not about about your reading skills, but actually your comprehension skills that are getting in the way.

You haven't come close to the obvious meaning of any verse you have tried to explain.

Are you self taught, or did you learn all that you have explained from a pastor?
 

BillG

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Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

According to you there is no need to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins because Jesus death already paid the price for sins. Jesus blood will cleanse you from all your sins, but you have to repent and you also need to be baptized. Our baptism is likened to Noah's ark going through the flood. According to Genesis 6:14 the ark was pitched within and without with pitch. When you are baptized your are being dipped within and without into the triune God. When the flood came if you were not in the ark you were destroyed. Yes the judgement came because.
Are you saying that we need to be baptised to be saved?
 

ZNP

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Are you saying that we need to be baptised to be saved?
No, I'm saying that we have to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins.
 

ZNP

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You said:
"Yes, Jesus blood has the power to cleanse every person's sin regardless how heinous and how horrible, but you have to receive it."

So I asked:
"Do you have a verse that says this? I say you don't. This is your opinion, or the opinion of your pastor, but the Bible does NOT say that.

2 Cor 5:19 refutes that opinion."
Yes I provided many verses that show that even though Christ's blood does apply to the whole world, for us to be cleansed of sins we must personally receive that salvation, repent of our sins and be baptized into the name of Jesus.
 

ZNP

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Sorry, but your reading skills are getting in your way of understanding anything...Apparently you haven't read the verse, or read it correctly...Says you. So I had to "school' you on the whole chapter, which you obviously had no clue about...It may not about about your reading skills, but actually your comprehension skills that are getting in the way.
You are an arrogant and insulting person.

Proverbs 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Instead of responding to the verses on repenting and being baptized for the remission of sins you turn to spitting out insults.


Jeremiah 48:29 We have heard the pride of Moab, (he is exceeding proud) his loftiness, and his arrogancy, and his pride, and the haughtiness of his heart.

We can hear what kind of spirit you are.

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.


Pride, arrogance, a haughty way is something that every believer should deal with. We all need to repent of pride and immersed into the word of God to wash this stain away.

The words I shared were the words of the Lord Jesus and the apostle's fellowship.

1Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

If you do not consent to those words and the doctrine that is according to godliness then that also is evidence of pride. You are trying to get strife, railings and evil surmisings.

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

I will not have anything to do with your perverse disputings. I have shared the verses that you asked for.
 

BillG

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No, I'm saying that we have to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins.
But if our sins are not remissed because we have not been baptized then how are we saved?

Are you talking water baptism here?
 

ZNP

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The key point is that we must repent, present tense, for our sins to be blotted out.


Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
 

BillG

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The key point is that we must repent, present tense, for our sins to be blotted out.


Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
That does not answer my question.
 

ZNP

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But if our sins are not remissed because we have not been baptized then how are we saved?

Are you talking water baptism here?
Baptize means to be immersed. Peter says that water baptism is a figure. It is certainly a very important practice and figure of what must take place. But there are those who cannot be immersed into water, for example if they are in prison.

The reality is to be immersed into the name of Jesus, to be immersed into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. To be immersed into the word and prayer and worship. So yes, you must be immersed into the name of Jesus to be saved. If nothing prevents you from being baptized in water then by all means that should be your first step since you are commanded by the fellowship of the apostles to be baptized.

However, Satan cannot prevent people from being saved but he can prevent them from being immersed into water. The figure doesn't save you, the reality does.

Jesus is Lord of all those who are saved. If He tells you to get baptized then doing so is evidence that He is Lord in your life. Likewise if you come up with some reason why it is not necessary to do what He says it is evidence that He is not Lord of your life.
 
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Yes I provided many verses that show that even though Christ's blood does apply to the whole world, for us to be cleansed of sins we must personally receive that salvation, repent of our sins and be baptized into the name of Jesus.
It's not Christ's blood that saves. That's the point. Or prove it with verses that SAY so. Which you haven't done yet.

In fact, it is FAITH in the death of Christ (blood of Christ) that saves us. Rom 5:1
 

BillG

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Baptize means to be immersed. Peter says that water baptism is a figure. It is certainly a very important practice and figure of what must take place. But there are those who cannot be immersed into water, for example if they are in prison.

The reality is to be immersed into the name of Jesus, to be immersed into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. To be immersed into the word and prayer and worship. So yes, you must be immersed into the name of Jesus to be saved. If nothing prevents you from being baptized in water then by all means that should be your first step since you are commanded by the fellowship of the apostles to be baptized.

However, Satan cannot prevent people from being saved but he can prevent them from being immersed into water. The figure doesn't save you, the reality does.
Just answer my question.

Do I need to be baptised in water to be saved?

Yes or no?