Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, Jesus Christ paid the full sin debt on the cross for everyone in the human race.
2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
So, no one will be sent to the LOF on the basis of their sins!
Well, thanks for failing to read further. Those who did read that unbelievers will GO to the LOF. No "feel good" here.
FreeGrace2 said:
So, what is the basis of being sent to the LOF then?
GWT judgment is for unbelievers only: Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
I'm sorry the Bible is confusing to you, but v.15 is explicit about WHY unbelievers go to the LOF. They never received the gift of eternal life. However, each unbeliever will be evaluated or judged according to their works, for determining how "tolerable/bearable" it will be for them IN the LOF. Is that confusing to you?
In Matt 10:15 Jesus made a clear statement about the fact that it will be "more bearable/tolerable" for some than for others.
Well, that's because you are confused. How can anyone be sent to the LOF for sins since jesus paid the full debt for all sins?
I also quotee 2 Cor 5:19. Was that confusing too?
Do you have a verse that says this? I say you don't. This is your opinion, or the opinion of your pastor, but the Bible does NOT say that..
2 Cor 5:19 refutes that opinion.
What does yyour dirty clothes have to do with your sins? Nothing.
You are still confused. Jesus makes SALVATION available to all people. Why? Because He died for all sins.
What is received is eternal life, the basis foir NOT going to the LOF (Rev 20:15), and WAY to receive the gift is believing in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Do you know why this is?
Actually, it is your opinions that are non biblical and confusing. I have given verses. You haven't.
Did you read the whole context, or just this one verse?
Well, let's do then.
1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children
2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In v.3 Paul admonishes BELIEVERS to avoid immorality, impurity, and greed. Why? Because these are IMPROPER for God's people.
Then Paul continues in v.4 with more things believers should avoid.
So v.5 is ALSO about believers. And notice Paul repeats the SAME 3 things from v.3: immorality, impurity and greed.
So what Paul is teaching is that believers who engage in these things, which are IMPROPER for believers, will have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.
What Paul DIDN'T say was that believers who do these things will NOT ENTER the kingdom, which unfortunately too many believers are confused about that as well.
To be clear, Jesus Christ paid the full sin debt on the cross for everyone in the human race.
2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
So, no one will be sent to the LOF on the basis of their sins!
Well, thanks for failing to read further. Those who did read that unbelievers will GO to the LOF. No "feel good" here.
FreeGrace2 said:
So, what is the basis of being sent to the LOF then?
GWT judgment is for unbelievers only: Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
I'm sorry the Bible is confusing to you, but v.15 is explicit about WHY unbelievers go to the LOF. They never received the gift of eternal life. However, each unbeliever will be evaluated or judged according to their works, for determining how "tolerable/bearable" it will be for them IN the LOF. Is that confusing to you?
In Matt 10:15 Jesus made a clear statement about the fact that it will be "more bearable/tolerable" for some than for others.
Well, that's because you are confused. How can anyone be sent to the LOF for sins since jesus paid the full debt for all sins?
I also quotee 2 Cor 5:19. Was that confusing too?
Do you have a verse that says this? I say you don't. This is your opinion, or the opinion of your pastor, but the Bible does NOT say that..
2 Cor 5:19 refutes that opinion.
What does yyour dirty clothes have to do with your sins? Nothing.
You are still confused. Jesus makes SALVATION available to all people. Why? Because He died for all sins.
What is received is eternal life, the basis foir NOT going to the LOF (Rev 20:15), and WAY to receive the gift is believing in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Do you know why this is?
Actually, it is your opinions that are non biblical and confusing. I have given verses. You haven't.
Did you read the whole context, or just this one verse?
Well, let's do then.
1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children
2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In v.3 Paul admonishes BELIEVERS to avoid immorality, impurity, and greed. Why? Because these are IMPROPER for God's people.
Then Paul continues in v.4 with more things believers should avoid.
So v.5 is ALSO about believers. And notice Paul repeats the SAME 3 things from v.3: immorality, impurity and greed.
So what Paul is teaching is that believers who engage in these things, which are IMPROPER for believers, will have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.
What Paul DIDN'T say was that believers who do these things will NOT ENTER the kingdom, which unfortunately too many believers are confused about that as well.
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Do you want to be saved ? Sure you do. Do you want to not be deceived . Yes. What about eternal security ? Jesus said that whosover believes on Him shall be saved and have life eternal. Well do the devils believe , yes in a different way though I suppose. They believe and tremble from the fear of the Lord. Not a bad idea. The fear of the Lord I mean, it is by the fear of the Lord that men "depart from evil". The fear of the Lord endures forever says, scripture . Jesus said fear Him , that is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. Let me put it like this. Unless you a Calvinist which is a different gospel in my view and another Christ. It is about covenant or entering into a contract covenant relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ . Take a highlighter and highlight IF before all the commands of The Lord. Then you will understand covenant hopefully . If you obey my voice. Obey means do. Not to be saved by works . Saved by grace. Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of Heaven but He that does the will of my Father which is in Heaven. Simply put the obedience of faith mentioned in Romans 1:5 Hearken , we are called to obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus , says , Peter. God wants a people. He layed it out right after the trek through the red sea. You'll find the beginning of the If's . If you will obey my voice. If runs through the old testament after that and through the New. Same deal we are called to believe into a covenant relationship. Note we are not doing this in the arm of the flesh , we are being kept by the power of God unto salvation He is working in us the ability to enjoy this new life, his commandments are not grievous. We are new creations new creatures in Christ. But fight the good fight of faith , not to fall away applies , to keep our hearts with all diligence applies. We don't get to live forever without abiding in our relationship with Jesus. If you abide in me and my words abide in you sort of thing. If not it's like a branch that withers. Let God be God.
Found this on an old thread, couldn't agree more. Top 10 verses disproving OSAS, changing the formatting slightly.
Matt 6:14-15, Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive those who have sinned against you,
or those whom you have something against, Father God will not forgive you of your sins.
1 Cor 15:1-2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel)
which was preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
This reminds me of Jesus’ warning to first count the cost of being a disciple (Luke 14:26-33).
2 Cor 7:1,10 • Paul instructs the church on how to cleanse themselves from their sins,
and how to perfect their holiness: “godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation”.
Heb 3:12-19 • We have become partakers of Christ, if we continue to believe steadfast to the end. But, beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God by developing
an evil heart of unbelief, hardened through the deceitfulness of sin … as did the OT Jews
who departed from the living God through their sinning, disobedience, and rebellion.
So they could not enter in. Instead, God left them strewn all over the desert floor.
Rom 11:21-22 • God displayed His severity with the OT Jews who fell …
He did not spare them, but instead He cut them off.
He will do the same to you, if you do not continue in His goodness.
Heb 6:4-8 • It is impossible for Christians who have fallen away to be renewed again to repentance. They have crucified the Son of God again, putting Him to an open shame… their end is to be burned.
Heb 10:36-39 • The just shall live by faith, but if anyone draws back, they draw back to perdition. But, those who endure in continuing to believe, do so to the saving of their souls.
1 Pet 1:9 • Christians may receive the end of their faith—the salvation of their souls.
Matt 10:22, Mark 13:13 • But he who endures to the end will be saved (i.e. eternal salvation).
2 Pet 2:20-21 • If Christians are again entangled in sin and overcome by them, the latter end for them is worse than it was before they were saved.
Rev 21:7-8 • ALL liars shall have their part in the lake of fire, which is the second death.
But He who overcomes (his sins, such as lying) shall inherit all things.
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” (Matt 11:5)
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” (Rev 2:11)
Matt 6:14-15, Mark 11:25-26 • If you do not forgive those who have sinned against you,
or those whom you have something against, Father God will not forgive you of your sins.
1 Cor 15:1-2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel)
which was preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
This reminds me of Jesus’ warning to first count the cost of being a disciple (Luke 14:26-33).
2 Cor 7:1,10 • Paul instructs the church on how to cleanse themselves from their sins,
and how to perfect their holiness: “godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation”.
Heb 3:12-19 • We have become partakers of Christ, if we continue to believe steadfast to the end. But, beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God by developing
an evil heart of unbelief, hardened through the deceitfulness of sin … as did the OT Jews
who departed from the living God through their sinning, disobedience, and rebellion.
So they could not enter in. Instead, God left them strewn all over the desert floor.
Rom 11:21-22 • God displayed His severity with the OT Jews who fell …
He did not spare them, but instead He cut them off.
He will do the same to you, if you do not continue in His goodness.
Heb 6:4-8 • It is impossible for Christians who have fallen away to be renewed again to repentance. They have crucified the Son of God again, putting Him to an open shame… their end is to be burned.
Heb 10:36-39 • The just shall live by faith, but if anyone draws back, they draw back to perdition. But, those who endure in continuing to believe, do so to the saving of their souls.
1 Pet 1:9 • Christians may receive the end of their faith—the salvation of their souls.
Matt 10:22, Mark 13:13 • But he who endures to the end will be saved (i.e. eternal salvation).
2 Pet 2:20-21 • If Christians are again entangled in sin and overcome by them, the latter end for them is worse than it was before they were saved.
Rev 21:7-8 • ALL liars shall have their part in the lake of fire, which is the second death.
But He who overcomes (his sins, such as lying) shall inherit all things.
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” (Matt 11:5)
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” (Rev 2:11)
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You have just demonstrated how much you have misunderstood ALL of these verses you quoted.
Jesus couldn't have been any more clear in the following verses:
John 5:24 says that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. That means they possess eternal life the MOMENT they become believers.
John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That means eternal security is based on what Jesus does for us.
Never on what we do for Him.
Jesus couldn't have been any more clear in the following verses:
John 5:24 says that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. That means they possess eternal life the MOMENT they become believers.
John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That means eternal security is based on what Jesus does for us.
Never on what we do for Him.
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I am led by the Holy Spirit.
If He leds then I must follow.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14
We each must choose whom we are to obey, whether the Spirit of Christ, or the sin in our mortal body.
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13
JPT
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And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
Who receives eternal salvation?
Those who obey Him, or those who disobey Him?
JPT
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CONTEXT. Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.
Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.
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I follow with most of what you've written where this context is found except the use of this verse as proof text of the relative to the tolerability of the LOF. This verse is referencing the tolerability of a city in the day of judgment, but it's unclear to me that we should regard each individual as being judged as the equivalent to a city. Though cities are judged to destruction, no city is thrown into the LOF. Should I consider myself to be Jerusalem? Ephesus? New York maybe?
Sanctification is a process. People who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior but have yet to rid themselves of such harsh feelings towards others are saved nonetheless.
Being a new creation in Christ means exactly that, a new creation, but being perfected is a process very few people ever achieve in its entirety. Yet God’s free gift of grace through faith remains irrevocable.
Being a new creation in Christ means exactly that, a new creation, but being perfected is a process very few people ever achieve in its entirety. Yet God’s free gift of grace through faith remains irrevocable.
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Re: bolded. If so, even believing in Him is not necessary, and everyone is saved, even without faith, and that is universalism. And obviously false. Therefore, it is necessary for salvation that we believe in and love/obey Jesus Christ.
Salvation begins when we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior by Grace through Faith. That is Justification.
Then, there is Sanctification, and after Sanctification, God gives you the Grace of Perseverance in the Faith. If you endure to the end, by His Grace, you will be saved. If you fall away, through your fault, you will be lost. OSAS is not Biblical Truth.
Here is a clear disproof of OSAS from Jesus Christ Himself in Matthew 18:
"22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
So the wicked was first forgiven, or justified, but not finally saved, because he lost his soul and went to hell. See how clear it is that OSAS is not true? Or rather, it should be called "OJAS", i.e. Once Justified, Always Saved. Still not true.
Here is another Proof that OJAS/OSAS is not the Truth from the Word of God in Hebrews 10:
"39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."
See how clearly it says those who draw back do so unto perdition. And again it shows who believe to the saving of their souls are those who do not draw back, i.e. fall away from the Faith, unto perdition. Hence, perseverance in faith in Christ until the end is necessary for salvation.
God Bless.
Salvation begins when we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior by Grace through Faith. That is Justification.
Then, there is Sanctification, and after Sanctification, God gives you the Grace of Perseverance in the Faith. If you endure to the end, by His Grace, you will be saved. If you fall away, through your fault, you will be lost. OSAS is not Biblical Truth.
Here is a clear disproof of OSAS from Jesus Christ Himself in Matthew 18:
"22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
So the wicked was first forgiven, or justified, but not finally saved, because he lost his soul and went to hell. See how clear it is that OSAS is not true? Or rather, it should be called "OJAS", i.e. Once Justified, Always Saved. Still not true.
Here is another Proof that OJAS/OSAS is not the Truth from the Word of God in Hebrews 10:
"39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."
See how clearly it says those who draw back do so unto perdition. And again it shows who believe to the saving of their souls are those who do not draw back, i.e. fall away from the Faith, unto perdition. Hence, perseverance in faith in Christ until the end is necessary for salvation.
God Bless.
FreeGrace2 said:
You have just demonstrated how much you have misunderstood ALL of these verses you quoted.
Jesus couldn't have been any more clear in the following verses:
John 5:24 says that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. That means they possess eternal life the MOMENT they become believers.
John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That means eternal security is based on what Jesus does for us.
Never on what we do for Him.
If you believe that I said any of this or suggested any of this, you just don't understand English. You couldn't be farther from what I believe.
I have always believed this and stated so.
So, basically, the last sentence destroys what Jesus taught. He taught that believers possess eternal life in John 5:24 and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.
Apparently you are not able to connect the dots here. And you reject what Jesus taught.
If this passage says what you opine it does, then Jesus contradicted Himself. Naw.
This says nothing about losing salvation. Read it again.
I'm really sorry that you misunderstand so much of the Bible.
When a person believes in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life, per John 5:24.
Those given eternal life (see Jn 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH, per John 10:28.
Why do you reject the clear teaching of Jesus Christ?
How can anyone who adamantly believes that Jn 5:24 and 10:28 isn't about eternal security call themselves a Christian?
The words in those 2 verses are TOO CLEAR FOR MISUNDERSTANDING.
You have just demonstrated how much you have misunderstood ALL of these verses you quoted.
Jesus couldn't have been any more clear in the following verses:
John 5:24 says that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. That means they possess eternal life the MOMENT they become believers.
John 10:28 says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That means eternal security is based on what Jesus does for us.
Never on what we do for Him.
If you believe that I said any of this or suggested any of this, you just don't understand English. You couldn't be farther from what I believe.
I have always believed this and stated so.
So, basically, the last sentence destroys what Jesus taught. He taught that believers possess eternal life in John 5:24 and that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.
Apparently you are not able to connect the dots here. And you reject what Jesus taught.
If this passage says what you opine it does, then Jesus contradicted Himself. Naw.
This says nothing about losing salvation. Read it again.
I'm really sorry that you misunderstand so much of the Bible.
When a person believes in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life, per John 5:24.
Those given eternal life (see Jn 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH, per John 10:28.
Why do you reject the clear teaching of Jesus Christ?
How can anyone who adamantly believes that Jn 5:24 and 10:28 isn't about eternal security call themselves a Christian?
The words in those 2 verses are TOO CLEAR FOR MISUNDERSTANDING.
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