Even So Faith, If It Hath Not Works, Is Dead, Being Alone.

[Pray_without_ceasing]

I DO believe what the Bible SAYS.

I do what the Bereans did with Paul's preaching. So if you want to convince me of your claims, provide verses that plainly say what you say.

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. This people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them, saith the Lord.

He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I DO believe what the Bible SAYS.

I do what the Bereans did with Paul's preaching. So if you want to convince me of your claims, provide verses that plainly say what you say.

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. This people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them, saith the Lord.

He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

I don't see how this passage is relevant to my comments above.

Could you explain please?

 

[Grandpa]

In the Greek, words that go together have the SAME gender. In v.8, both "saved" and "gift" are in the feminine, while the word "faith" is masculine. So you are wrong about faith being a gift. No Greek would agree with your belief.

No one needs greek to see the meaning of this verse. Only someone who WISHES to put a DIFFERENT meaning into this verse would go to such extreme measures.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Not of yourselves includes ALL the things listed. Otherwise, NOT OF YOURSELVES, is completely redundant and even FALSE.


Anything that is not a Gift is a work. Any requirements that are not GIFTED would have to be WORKED for.

This simple fact would place the scripture at odds with itself.


Ephesians 2:9 is non-sensical if Faith is a work and not a gift. As well as Galatians 5:22 and a host of others.

Grandpa said: Can you work the works of God without the Lord Jesus Christ?

I asked a specific question here and you deflected.

Take John 15:5 and John 6:29 and tell me if people can do the work of God. Which is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Maybe you'll think about it a little more.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In the Greek, words that go together have the SAME gender. In v.8, both "saved" and "gift" are in the feminine, while the word "faith" is masculine. So you are wrong about faith being a gift. No Greek would agree with your belief.

No one needs greek to see the meaning of this verse.

One does if one wants what the original signature means. Wow. Such ignorance.

Why do you think an English translation, or any other, for that matter, would be exactly what the author meant?

btw, you can check out the FACT that words that go together have the same gender if you are interested. But, of course you might not be, since that kinda blows the lid off your erroneous understanding of Eph 2:8.

Only someone who WISHES to put a DIFFERENT meaning into this verse would go to such extreme measures.

So, it's "going to extreme measures" to simply follow Greek grammar, huh. Wow. You really have issues.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The English is UNABLE to demonstrate what words go together. That's why following Greek grammar makes the difference.

Not of yourselves includes ALL the things listed.

The next verse qualifies what "not of yourselves" means. That's why Paul included it.

Otherwise, NOT OF YOURSELVES, is completely redundant and even FALSE.

No, Paul clarified it in the next verse, just for such as you Calvinists.

Anything that is not a Gift is a work.

Rather than relying on your opinions, do you have a verse that says so?

Any requirements that are not GIFTED would have to be WORKED for.

Just how hard is it for YOU to create a thought?

This simple fact would place the scripture at odds with itself.

You are really confused.

Ephesians 2:9 is non-sensical if Faith is a work and not a gift.

It's neither or the Bible would have said so. The gift in Eph 2:8 is salvation, just as eternal life is a gift. They are synonymous.

I asked a specific question here and you deflected.

Take John 15:5 and John 6:29 and tell me if people can do the work of God. Which is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, they can. And have been doing since Adam.

Maybe you'll think about it a little more.

I don't expect that you will, given your refusal to respect the original autograph.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Apparently there are sins more grave than other, for Jesus Yeshua has taught thaqt he who has trespassed even the least of the laws is guilty of having trespassed dthem all. Yes, the punishment may amount to the same for all however when one may seem more grave than another, from His lips, this may be so.

“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: but if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:8-13‬ ‭

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s our judgement because all of us are imperfect and have transgressed the law of sin and death , we can repent and be forgiven by that law of mercy. But if we refuse it we have judgement without mercy according by the letter

we can hear this and live through mercy because we’ve all sinned and probably will again

“Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:11-12, 14-15‬ ‭

How we treat others is how we can expect to be treated by Jesus at judgement, we can be vengeful or merciful , grudge bearing or forgiving , we can do good to others or sin against them because that’s what the law is actually about “ don’t lie to each other “ “ don’t steal from each other “ “ don’t kill one another “ don’t cheat on each other when you get married or sleep with another’s spouse “

When we sin it’s usually against each other so love is fulfilled when we aren’t doing harm and we are doing good for each other.

“We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:19-21‬ ‭

When we talk about sin the truth is most of us Christian’s are basically pretty decent folks to each other but there are always improvements we make . The word “ sin “ is referring to the law that teaches us what not to do to each other “ don’t do harm to each other it’s sin “

there’s other personal sin also but mostly it’s how we test our neighbor what not to do to each Other is the law “Thou shalt not “

what to do and how to treat each other is the gospel instead of the law which says “ witness every sin against the other sinners and condemn them by the letter “ and eye for an eye tooth for a tooth “

the gospel says turn the other cheek at offense , bless insults , don’t take revenge , forgive and you’ll be forgiven it’s a better way but we still aren’t Jews or allowed to do harm to each other which is sin now we walk by that spirit in the gospel of how we treat others in Jesus name whether good or bad the people we interact with we treat them with love or disregard compassion or distain

In the end how we treat others is our judgement and sin is simply doing harm and evil to others and most of us don’t really do a lot of murderers and adulteries and thefts at least if we used to we have repented of those things that’s all we have to do in regards to “ sin “ stop besting thou shalt nots of the law and


start hearing the “your forgiven now hear and learn of me and follow me and live” in the gospel

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Of course it is. What you are saying is tantamount to saying "and dead bodies" aren't bodies at all".

Do you agree with that? I hope you don't, because that is absurd.

A dead faith from James 2 is a faith that can't be demonstrated because of a lack of works.

Consequently, it's NOT Biblical FAITH AT ALL. nothing but Intellectual assent, which has no power to change anything.

Most of what the church CALLS "Faith" isn't "Faith" at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course it is. What you are saying is tantamount to saying "and dead bodies" aren't bodies at all".

Do you agree with that? I hope you don't, because that is absurd.

A dead faith from James 2 is a faith that can't be demonstrated because of a lack of works.

Consequently, it's NOT Biblical FAITH AT ALL. nothing but Intellectual assent, which has no power to change anything.

I disagree. Believing IS "intellectual assent". Far too many pastors have totally distorted the mechanics of believing by trying to force a guaranteed outcome of behavior into it, which isn't really there at all.

I explained James 2:18. Move the erroneously placed end quote to the end of the second sentence and the sentence makes sense.

As it is placed in the translations, the sentence doesn't make sense. But the clear point is that in order to demonstrate your faith to others, you must have deeds. That is the point.

So I'll ask you; if a dead faith is NO faith at all, is a "dead body" NO body at all? It's the same thing regardless of what is dead.

Most of what the church CALLS "Faith" isn't "Faith" at all.

I agree, but probably for a different reason.

If "true faith" is guaranteed to produce fruit, then all the commands to bear fruit are meaningless as commands. It's gonna happen for saved people. So the command is totally unnecessary.

Yet, they exist as commands. So the command IS necessary, because there are believers who don't produce fruit.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

is a "dead body" NO body at all?

Yup it's "no body at all" after a short time - in my case after the crematorium, and the cremulator, it'll be dust in an overpriced jug.

It's the same thing regardless of what is dead.

Don't be silly!!! Your dichotomy is totally false. FAITH is either there, or it's NOT. James is simply a "Litmus test" for one to determine whether or not what they CALL "Faith" actually IS, or is nothing but an illusion/belief.

If "true faith" is guaranteed to produce fruit, then all the commands to bear fruit are meaningless as commands. It's gonna happen for saved people. So the command is totally unnecessary.

SO you have no confidence AT ALL that what YOU "Call faith" will change you, and cause you to become progressively more like Jesus (Rom 8:28,29), then. Could be YOU'RE the one who has no FAITH (dead faith) in your salvation????

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
is a "dead body" NO body at all?

Yup it's "no body at all" after a short time - in my case after the crematorium, and the cremulator, it'll be dust in an overpriced jug.

So you are equating the decay of a body with a faith then. Odd, at least. Where do you get your information about that?

There are bodies that have been mummified in nature and have been calculated to be 1,000's of years old. So your example is inadequate.

The FACT is that there are many dead bodies around, some very very old. Yet they ARE dead.

btw, since a "dead faith" by definition had to be alive BEFORE it "died", that means you have to believe that salvation can be lost.

Well, that's easy to refute. The very words from Jesus.

John 5:24 - Jesus taught that believers POSSESS (have) eternal life. That means they possess it WHEN they believe.
John 10:28 - Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

All this means that from the MOMENT of saving faith in Jesus Christ, the believer is eternally secure. Period.

And Paul noted that there is "nothing in the present or future" that can separate us from the love of Christ. So that means there is nothing that can cause us to lose salvation.

Don't be silly!!! Your dichotomy is totally false. FAITH is either there, or it's NOT. James is simply a "Litmus test" for one to determine whether or not what they CALL "Faith" actually IS, or is nothing but an illusion/belief.

Jams 2:18 proves my claim. The ONLY WAY to demonstrate your faith is through deeds.

One can have faith but have no deeds. That is WHY there are commands to bear fruit. It isn't automatic.

No need to keep arguing. James 2:18 stops all argument about what James' point was.

If you want to keep arguing, then you have to prove that James 2:18 doesn't say what I believe it says. So, you have to provide an explanation of what he meant and then paraphrase the verse to reflect what you think he meant to say.



SO you have no confidence AT ALL that what YOU "Call faith" will change you, and cause you to become progressively more like Jesus (Rom 8:28,29), then. Could be YOU'RE the one who has no FAITH (dead faith) in your salvation????[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
is a "dead body" NO body at all?

Yup it's "no body at all" after a short time - in my case after the crematorium, and the cremulator, it'll be dust in an overpriced jug.

So you are equating the decay of a body with a faith then. Odd, at least. Where do you get your information about that?

There are bodies that have been mummified in nature and have been calculated to be 1,000's of years old. So your example is inadequate.

The FACT is that there are many dead bodies around, some very very old. Yet they ARE dead.

btw, since a "dead faith" by definition had to be alive BEFORE it "died", that means you have to believe that salvation can be lost.

Well, that's easy to refute. The very words from Jesus.

John 5:24 - Jesus taught that believers POSSESS (have) eternal life. That means they possess it WHEN they believe.
John 10:28 - Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

All this means that from the MOMENT of saving faith in Jesus Christ, the believer is eternally secure. Period.

And Paul noted that there is "nothing in the present or future" that can separate us from the love of Christ. So that means there is nothing that can cause us to lose salvation.

Don't be silly!!! Your dichotomy is totally false. FAITH is either there, or it's NOT. James is simply a "Litmus test" for one to determine whether or not what they CALL "Faith" actually IS, or is nothing but an illusion/belief.

Jams 2:18 proves my claim. The ONLY WAY to demonstrate your faith is through deeds.

One can have faith but have no deeds. That is WHY there are commands to bear fruit. It isn't automatic.

No need to keep arguing. James 2:18 stops all argument about what James' point was.

If you want to keep arguing, then you have to prove that James 2:18 doesn't say what I believe it says. So, you have to provide an explanation of what he meant and then paraphrase the verse to reflect what you think he meant to say.

SO you have no confidence AT ALL that what YOU "Call faith" will change you[/QUOT]
You totally misunderstand me. When a person believes, they ARE changed. They become a new creature. Their dead human spirit is regenerated again. I believe that is where the Holy Spirit resides, since Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that in order to worship God one must worship IN spirit (human) and in truth (God's way).

and cause you to become progressively more like Jesus (Rom 8:28,29), then.

The "cause" of progressive sanctification and spiritual growth is being IN fellowship (1 Jn 1:9) and being "filled with the Spirit" which most evangelicals have no clue about how to obey that command (Eph 5:18).

Could be YOU'RE the one who has no FAITH (dead faith) in your salvation????

Why would that be? Haven't you read any of my posts? I received eternal life when I placed my trust in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for my sins.

Now, you tell me, is my faith dead or alive?

Fruit inspection does NOT determine whether a person is saved or not. But Calvinists think it is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Cursed by the 5 minute limit.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
In the Greek, words that go together have the SAME gender. In v.8, both "saved" and "gift" are in the feminine, while the word "faith" is masculine. So you are wrong about faith being a gift. No Greek would agree with your belief.

One does if one wants what the original signature means. Wow. Such ignorance.

Why do you think an English translation, or any other, for that matter, would be exactly what the author meant?

btw, you can check out the FACT that words that go together have the same gender if you are interested. But, of course you might not be, since that kinda blows the lid off your erroneous understanding of Eph 2:8.

This is just BASIC comprehension skills.

Either what you have is a gift of God, AND NOT OF YOURSELVES, or it's from you and it is YOUR WORK.

Since Grace, Salvation and Faith are all listed in Eph 2:8 then ALL of them MUST be Gifts of God. Otherwise, NOT OF YOURSELVES, and NOT OF WORKS, is erroneous and should not even be in those verses.


Let's just say that the Greek grammar means that Salvation is what is the gift of God. Fine. Salvation = Grace + Faith. Now we have NOT OF YOURSELVES. Let's say that is referring to Salvation as well. Fine. Then, by necessity, Salvation, Grace & Faith = NOT OF YOURSELVES. Otherwise the NOT OF YOURSELVES is incorrect. In order for Salvation to be NOT OF YOURSELVES the parts that CAUSED that Salvation must also be NOT OF YOURSELVES. Or the scripture is wrong.



True Ignorance is thinking that Greek grammar tells you the meaning of Scripture. All that Greek grammar tells you is how a sentence is set up. You have to use discernment and pray for understanding in order to get to the meaning of scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In the Greek, words that go together have the SAME gender. In v.8, both "saved" and "gift" are in the feminine, while the word "faith" is masculine. So you are wrong about faith being a gift. No Greek would agree with your belief.

One does if one wants what the original signature means. Wow. Such ignorance.

Why do you think an English translation, or any other, for that matter, would be exactly what the author meant?

btw, you can check out the FACT that words that go together have the same gender if you are interested. But, of course you might not be, since that kinda blows the lid off your erroneous understanding of Eph 2:8.

This is just BASIC comprehension skills.

Of course.

Either what you have is a gift of God, AND NOT OF YOURSELVES, or it's from you and it is YOUR WORK.

Of course. But the gift is NOT your believing, it is salvation, the RESULT of your believing. That distinction is very important.

Since Grace, Salvation and Faith are all listed in Eph 2:8 then ALL of them MUST be Gifts of God.

That's not true because the Bible doesn't say what you are saying. This isn't some word salad. All mixed together.

Otherwise, NOT OF YOURSELVES, and NOT OF WORKS, is erroneous and should not even be in those verses.

They certainly clarify things. But unfortunately, Calvinists have a view that God has to regenerate people (those He chose) so that they will be able to believe. Unbiblical.

Let's just say that the Greek grammar means that Salvation is what is the gift of God. Fine. Salvation = Grace + Faith. Now we have NOT OF YOURSELVES. Let's say that is referring to Salvation as well. Fine. Then, by necessity, Salvation, Grace & Faith = NOT OF YOURSELVES. Otherwise the NOT OF YOURSELVES is incorrect. In order for Salvation to be NOT OF YOURSELVES the parts that CAUSED that Salvation must also be NOT OF YOURSELVES. Or the scripture is wrong.

We all know that the cause of salvation is God Himself. He is the One who does the saving. So what is your point?

True Ignorance is thinking that Greek grammar tells you the meaning of Scripture.

no, ignorance is claiming that the Greek isn't necessary to understand or clarify some verses.

All that Greek grammar tells you is how a sentence is set up.

This is ignorance. Obviously it tells us much more than that.

You have to use discernment and pray for understanding in order to get to the meaning of scripture.

And be aware of what is meant from the original. English is hardly a perfect translation from Greek. In fact, there are verses that cannot be properly translated into English.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Cursed by the 5 minute limit.

It does seem overly restrictive.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

since a "dead faith" by definition had to be alive BEFORE it "died"

Chuckle!!! only according to your definition. The fact remains that "Dead FAITH" = no faith at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
since a "dead faith" by definition had to be alive BEFORE it "died"

Chuckle!!! only according to your definition.

Well then. Maybe you can explain how something can be DEAD without being alive first.

The fact remains that "Dead FAITH" = no faith at all.

OK, so to take your comment to it's logical conclusion,

"the fact remains that "DEAD body" = no body at all.

If that makes sense to you, wow.

I cannot imagine how anything can be DEAD without first having had life.

 

[Magenta]

Are you blind or are you eyes simply closed tightly? Go look at the
top line in my quote above. And you come back with this nonsense?

Your statement/question here suggests you expect someone to
believe something just because you claim it. That is quite unrealistic.

Perhaps you could dial back on the sneering insults, any ways.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your statement/question here suggests you expect someone to
believe something just because you claim it. That is quite unrealistic.

That wasn't the issue. Did you actually examine the context? I was being assigned a view that I do NOT hold and never suggested the view that was being insinuated as mine.

Perhaps you could dial back on the sneering insults, any ways.

This is what I said:

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you blind or are you eyes simply closed tightly? Go look at the
top line in my quote above. And you come back with this nonsense?
My question is legitimate. And my description of what the other poster said WAS nonsense.

So, where is this "sneering insult" that you speak of?

How would you feel if another poster made a claim about what you believe and it wasn't close to what you believed?

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

I believe Jesus does not want to drop and leave us, God is long suffering, merciful, and desires that no one is lost.
The bible tells us that sin seperates us from God. The bible tells us that God did leave people to there own destruction.

I believe Faith is how we are saved. Righteousness by faith alone.

Do you not see the conditions all through the bible? Are you purposely ignoring the conditions?

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: ..........(read it all if you have time) ....41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when........46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I could add many more verses....

It is not about doing good works to be saved. We are not able to purchase salvation.
Faith in Jesus results in a relationship (knowing Him), this results in love for Him.
If you truely love God you will have fruits, and obey Him.
It isn't about the amount, because some people come to know Jesus just before they die.
The devil delieves and knows all about God, but his fruits show that he does not love God.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Neighbour, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? As it is written, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And unto what were you baptized?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Neighbour, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?

This question is irrelevant. EVERY believer receives the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe. Eph 1:13,14 and Gal 3:2,5.