Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

renewed

I understand and believe Scripture just as written.

You think you believe scripture but you really oppose them

I reject your manipulation of Scripture. Rejecting your erroneous dogma does not equal me rejecting Scripture.

Again, you reject Justification by the blood of Christ Rom 5:9 and the resurrection of Jesus Christ testifies to it Rom 4:25

The above quote is what I am referring to when I claim that you have "botched" your post.

In the above quote it appears that I said:

"You add works to justification." and then said "nope ... Scripture makes clear that faith ≠ works".

However, brightfame52, you are the one who said "You add works to justification."

I then replied and stated "nope ... Scripture makes clear that faith ≠ works".

You reject the testimony that God Justifies the ungodly while being ungodly Rom 4:5

 

[FreeGrace2]

brightfame52 said:
Yes, again one must be born again to believe in Jesus Christ.

I responded:
"And you've never supported this from Scripture.

You are perpetuating a false doctrine."

Then you only quoted one word from my post: "you" and then said:

Now you judging me , thats hypocritical !

Please explain how I am hypocritical. I challenged you to prove your claim about having to be born again in order to believe in Christ.

NO verse says that, so you are making it all up. Which is what Calvin did and all who follow him.

So, if you can't prove your claim from Scripture, YOU ARE the hypocrite. And teaching false doctrine.

You have hijacked the Gift of Faith which is the fruit of Christs Spirit, and made it something found in the natural man who is spiritually dead to God !

And you also can't prove this claim, that faith is a gift. What you do is slaughter Eph 2:8 by ignoring the genders which inform which words go together. And salvation and gift are in the feminine gender, while faith is masculine. Proving your claim WRONG.

Not that these FACTS will give you any pause.

 

[brightfame52]

nope ... I do not deny Scripture. I deny your erroneous dogma.

According to you, the "elect" are justified before they believe and that is not what Scripture tells us.

Romans 4:24 clearly states that righteousness is imputed if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before the person believes.

You have even gone so far as to state that the "elect" ... "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners"
.

Yes, you deny scripture truth, but you deceived.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Then, under your rendering, the same is true of Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Yes, Rom 5:12 is also speaking of the elect, the Church. The Romans 5 passage 12ff is contrasting the elect in Adam and the Elect in Christ, and the consequences of the each Head, Adam and Christ.

So only "the Church, the Body of Christ" die? ... only "the Church, the Body of Christ" sin?

No others die, others sin, but they aren't being discussed in the passage, only the elect, the Church !

 

[brightfame52]

Believers were Justified/Made Righteous while Ungodly !

Believers were Justified/Made Righteous while Ungodly ! This Truth the unbelieving religious world cannot receive, That all for whom Christ died, that fact alone, apart from any obedience of their own, and even while they were operating by a spirit of disobedience as Per Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes even while they were in the midst of walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, even then, solely by the death of Christ, were they made Righteous, and Justified before God, in their ungodly manner of lifestyle !

Thats why Paul says that God was Justifying the Ungodly Rom 4:5 !

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul in Rom 5:19 teaches the same thing, that by Christ's one obedience unto death, for the many whom He died for are made Righteous, or Justified !

Now to prove that this being made Righteous and or Justified before God is prior to any acts of Gospel Obedience from the sinner, and while they are yet ungodly, we will look at Rom 4:25 where the proof lies in the witness of Christ's resurrection from the dead, Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification !

Now exactly how does this prove this vital gracious Truth ? Its simple, by the three letter word for, a preposition the greek word dia which means:


i.by reason of


ii.on account of


iii.because of for this reason

v.on this account

for sake of

Now, Paul says #1 that Christ was delivered for [on account of] our offenses, which applies to everyone that He was delivered to death for, on account of their sins/offences !

Now the same ones it is said that He was raised again for [on account of] their Justification !

There it is, His being raised again is a testification that His death for them was their Justification before God.

That word Justification is the greek word dikaiōsis:

I.the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.abjuring to be righteous, justification

Hence this is God's solemn affirmation that the death of Christ has made them He died for Righteous, and freed them from all guilt before Him !

Now, if this Resurrection of Christ took place in 33 ad, affirming the Justification of those He died for, then when a future believer[say in 1900] is born a sinner by nature, ungodly, and under the control of that spirit which worketh in the disobedient Eph 2:2, they have already been declared Righteous/Not guilty before God by the Resurrection of Christ, centuries before in 33 ad, so they were born in sin already Justified and Righteous before God, they just dont know it yet !

And to say otherwise is a rejection of the Testimony of Christ's Resurrection, which is a Gospel Truth 1 Cor 15:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

So here are the alternatives, we either believe that those Christ died for were Justified before God, made Righteous before Him by it, or we reject the Gospel Testimony and remain in unbelief ! 14

 

[brightfame52]

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ !

Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ , for the Justified; simply because the laying of their sins upon Christ was prior to their believing in Him, and the Laying of their sins upon Christ did Justify them from their sins, since when they were laid on Him, they could not be also laid upon them, and their sins condemned Him and not them. Those Christ died for, their sins and the punishment they accrued for them, have been legally taken away, even before any work of Grace begins in them by the Spirit of God !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Once a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly". This fact reveals the contradictory claims of your erroneous dogma.

Thats false.

brightfame52, you have already stated "its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly or in a ungodly state".

Now you claim "that's false" when I state a person is no longer "ungodly" when he/she is justified.

When I say a person is no longer "ungodly" once they are justified, "that's false"??? Because that is a complete 180 from your claim that "its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly or in a ungodly state".

the blood of Christ Rom 5:9 which was shed for them in 33 ad, now when a person who Christ blood Justified in 33 ad is born a ungodly sinner say in 1952, they are born a ungodly sinner already Justified

No descendant of Adam is born "already Justified".

All descendants of Adam (even your so-called "elect") are born ungodly and all descendants of Adam are ungodly until God justifies them by imputing righteousness to them and God tells us when He imputes righteousness and when they are justified:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


Righteousness was imputed to Abraham when Abraham believed the promise of God ... not in 33 ad when the Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood.

In our day and time, righteousness is imputed in the same manner as God imputed righteousness to Abraham:

Romans 4:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Righteousness is imputed to us when we believe. The moment we believe, God imputes righteousness to us and we are then justified.

When we are justified, we are no longer ungodly.

And please note, Rom 4:25 does not state righteous has already been imputed to those who believe. The verse clearly states righteousness shall be imputed, if we believe. If we don't believe, righteousness is not imputed.

You claim that the "elect" are justified before their physical birth

Yep since Christ has died for them before their physical birth, for that's what Justified them before Gods awesome tribunal

Scripture again shines its light on the error of your dogma since we know righteousness was imputed to Abraham long before the Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood ... and Noah was righteous long before Abraham was born, and Abel was declared righteous before Noah and Abraham.

Since, according to you, before you were born you were justified, then according to Scripture you were not "ungodly" from birth.

Im not here to call attention on me, so quit lying

You can only accuse me of lying if I know you are not justified.

Are you justified???

If you are not justified, please excuse me for having presumed you are justified.

Im here to call attention to the Justifying blood of Christ, which you vehemently deny.

Please provide the number of the post submitted by me wherein I "vehemently deny" the "Justifying blood of Christ".

If you cannot provide the post number, then you again reveal yourself as the accuser of the brethren – Rev 12:10).

There you go lying on me again.

Your lying on me and purposely misrepresenting what I have stated

Here is what I said, brightfame52:

Since, according to you, before you were born you were justified

Here is what you have stated:

Post 1620 – "... pronounced Righteous ... before they were even born sinners !"

Post 2107 – "They are born Justified"

Post 2487 - "they were part of His Body ... even before they were born period"


So, no I did not lie and once again you reveal you are the accuser of the brethren.

Since, according to you, before you were born you were justified, then according to Scripture you were not "ungodly" from birth. That is nothing but a lie from the pit. There is only One Who was not "ungodly" from birth ... and that is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. You are claiming a status that belongs only to Him.

Again mre lies and misrepresentation, I never said sinners including myself, weren’t born ungodly.

Again, brightfame52, according to Scripture, if a person is justified, he/she is no longer ungodly.

Since you claim the "elect" are "... pronounced Righteous ... before they were even born ... !" (Post 1620), and "They are born Justified" (Post 2107, and "they were part of His Body ... even before they were born period" (Post 2487), then you impart a status upon ungodly sinners which belongs wholly to the Lord Jesus Christ.

brightfame52 ... from birth you are/were ungodly and until you are born again, you will remain ungodly. Once a person is born again, he/she is sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13) ... i.e. regenerated, born again.

because of Christs blood shed for them before they were born again, they were Justified by it before they were born again

No one is justified "before they were born again".

If a born again one is born again before he/she is born again, there is no need to be born again. That is one of the fallacies of your erroneous dogma.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

after you heard, you believed

after you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated, born again) ... according to Scripture, no longer ungodly.

once a born again person believes, they are sealed with the Spirit of promise !

to be sealed with that holy Spirit of promise is to be born again.

So, again, your erroneous dogma has folks born again before they are born again. How many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

Now if you going to discuss or dispute what I have said, do it with integrity and honesty please !

I have provided sufficient proof as to who is submitting posts "with integrity and honesty" and who continues to be the accuser of the brethren.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

nor do we properly understand Rom 4:5 and the blessed Truth that God justifies the Ungodly

Until you acknowledge that Rom 4:5 clearly states that faith ≠ works, you will not "properly understand" it.

You deny Rom 4:5

nope ... that I do not hold to your erroneous dogma does not mean I "deny Rom 4:5".

those who are "now believing in Jesus" ... what do they believe concerning Jesus ???

That they were Justified/forgiven by His Blood

Again, brightfame52, as I stated in the post from which you quoted:

Some folks "believe" Jesus was a prophet ... a "good teacher" ... and while Jesus was a Prophet and a good teacher, that does not mean a person is born again because he/she believes that.

Some folks "believe" Jesus was a good man because He helped the needy, healed the sick, fed the multitudes ... and while it is true Jesus did those things, believing He did those things does not mean a person is born again.

There are people sitting in church pews who think they are born again, but they are not:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What about your church, brightfame52? You who come to this forum and claim that a person does "not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" ???

Is that Scriptural? Does not Romans 6 tell us Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???

So which is it? We can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???

Answer: Stick with Romans 6 and cast the erroneous dogma that we can "continue being ungodly sinners" to the dunghill where it belongs.

... it appears you are again(still) suggesting that a person must be born again in order to believe Scripture by which a person is born again.

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Yes you must be born again to believe in Jesus

under your erroneous dogma, how many times must a person be born again before he/she is really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now when are those being Justified as the Ungodly ?

When God imputes righteousness to him/her. And we see when right in the verse you quoted:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The words "is counted" are in the present tense (as are the words "believeth" and "him that justifieth").

They are justified the instant they believe. And once they are justified, they are no longer "ungodly"

Belief of the Truth is an act of godliness Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

ummmmm, this is nothing but more of your manipulation of Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous dogma.

The word "acknowledging" is translated from the Greek word epignōsis.

The word "belief" or "believe(ing)" is translated from the Greek word pistis (noun) or pisteuō (verb).

It would be good if you would actually acknowledge the truth which would lead you to godliness. Instead you hold to a dogma which states you can "continue being ungodly sinners" (which is a lie from the pit and is wholly contrary to anything God tells His people in either OT or NT).
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes even while they were in the midst of walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air

the verse does not state what you claim.

The verse states that in the past all born again ones behaved as stated.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past

In the past, that was how the born again one lived.

The born again one no longer lives according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

And if you think you're born again but you do continue to live like that, you should question whether you are truly born again.

And I'm not talking about the occasional stumble or times we've been drawn away we all find ourselves having to deal with. I'm talking about the habitual lifestyle of living according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

even then, solely by the death of Christ, were they made Righteous, and Justified before God, in their ungodly manner of lifestyle !

Thats why Paul says that God was Justifying the Ungodly Rom 4:5 !

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Again, all the verbs in Rom 4:5 are in the present tense ... the action is taking place right at the moment the person believes.

The one that worketh not, but believeth (both verbs (worketh not and believeth) on the part of the person are in the present tense).

God that justifieth and counted for righteousness ... again both verbs are in the present tense. So God justifies and imputes righteousness at the time the person believes.

The justifying and the imputing of righteousness did not take place in the past. The justifying and the imputing of righteousness takes place when the person (who is not working) believes.

Now to prove that this being made Righteous and or Justified before Godis prior to any acts of Gospel Obedience from the sinner

You have failed to prove your erroneous dogma. We are not interested in your dogma ... we are interested in what Scripture tells us. Your erroneous dogma is nothing but empty musings ... vanity.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!
.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Now you claim "that's false" when I state a person is no longer "ungodly" when he/she is justified.

Correct and you are absolutely wrong. Every sinner Christ died for is Justified by His death coming out the womb as a ungodly sinner, of course Christ only died for His elect. This is what this thread is about

No descendant of Adam is born "already Justified".

False. Thats like saying Christ didn't die for any sinner before they were born. Its His death that Justifies, His Blood

All descendants of Adam (even your so-called "elect") are born ungodly and all descendants of Adam are ungodly until God justifies them by imputing righteousness to them and God tells us when He imputes righteousness and when they are justified:

It is true that the elect are born ungodly as is the non elect, but its also true that the elect, though born ungodly, are nevertheless Justified and accounted righteous when they are born ungodly. Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The fact that Jesus bare one sins, Justified them, whether they are born yet or not. He foreknew them He died for, before they were born. Also the word justify/ṣāḏaq here in Vs 11 means:


to be just, be righteous

1. (Qal)
   1. to have a just cause, be in the right
   2. to be justified
2. (Niphal) to be put or made right, be justified
3. to declare righteous, justify

Righteousness was imputed to Abraham when Abraham believed the promise of God ... not in 33 ad when the Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood.

Righteousness was imputed to Abraham before he was born, based on what would occur[Christs death] in 33 ad, as it is with all Gods elect in Christ.

And please note, Rom 4:25 does not state righteous has already been imputed to those who believe. The verse clearly states righteousness shall be imputed, if we believe. If we don't believe, righteousness is not imputed.

I know what Rom 4:25 says, Christ was raised again for/because of our Justification, hence that proves that those He died for were justified, His resurrection proved it. So if you dont believe that, you dont believe the witness of Christs resurrection, which is nothing short of unbelief ! And everyone Christ died for, shall in Gods time, believe

Scripture again shines its light on the error of your dogma since we know righteousness was imputed to Abraham long before the Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood ... and Noah was righteous long before Abraham was born, and Abel was declared righteous before Noah and Abraham.

Your confused, I actually agree with that, so thats not error. Those people were all Justified by the blood of Christ before Christ shed His Blood in time, Christ in the mind and purpose of God was slain from the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Abraham, Noah, Abel and so forth, there names were written in the lambs book of life from the foundation, that fact alone secured their Justification before God, even before Christ came in time and died for them. As far as God was concerned, Christs death was a done deal, because He is not bound by time, Hes eternal and everything from the beginning to the end is one big present to Him !

Please provide the number of the post submitted by me wherein I "vehemently deny" the "Justifying blood of Christ".

All that isnt necessary, you claim people Christ died for can and shall die in their sins unjustified, dont you ? Yes or No If you say yes, you deny the Justifying blood of Christ, duh

Here is what you have stated:

Post 1620 – "... pronounced Righteous ... before they were even born sinners !"

Post 2107 – "They are born Justified"

Post 2487 - "they were part of His Body ... even before they were born period"

Yes I stated those things because they are true of Gods elect ! Not everyone

Again, brightfame52, according to Scripture, if a person is justified, he/she is no longer ungodly.

Thats error, The elect were Justified by Christs blood while ungodly in unbelief . God Justifies the ungodly remember Rom 4:5

No one is justified "before they were born again".

Thats folly, that's like saying Christ didn't die for ones sins before they were born. Let me ask you, you claim to be a christian, did Christ die for your sins before you were born ? Yes or no ?

If a born again one is born again before he/she is born again, there is no need to be born again. That is one of the fallacies of your erroneous dogma.

You sound mixed up

 

[brightfame52]

0654
renewed

nope ... that I do not hold to your erroneous dogma does not mean I "deny Rom 4:5".

Yes you do deny Rom 4:5 since that verse is a declaration that God Justifies a person while being ungodly.

Again, brightfame52, as I stated in the post from which you quoted:

Some folks "believe" Jesus was a prophet ... a "good teacher" ... and while Jesus was a Prophet and a good teacher, that does not mean a person is born again because he/she believes that.

Some folks "believe" Jesus was a good man because He helped the needy, healed the sick, fed the multitudes ... and while it is true Jesus did those things, believing He did those things does not mean a person is born again.

There are people sitting in church pews who think they are born again, but they are not:

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What about your church, brightfame52? You who come to this forum and claim that a person does "not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" ???

Is that Scriptural? Does not Romans 6 tell us Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???

So which is it? We can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???

Answer: Stick with Romans 6 and cast the erroneous dogma that we can "continue being ungodly sinners" to the dunghill where it belongs.

Lol, speaking of what Jesus one believes in. I hope you know that believing in a jesus that died for everyone without exception is not the Jesus of scripture. The Jesus of scripture died exclusively for His Sheep, Gods elect, or His Body the Church, or His People Matt 1:21 and saved them.

But that jesus being preached today, that he died for all mankind and rendered salvation possible, or available if you accept him, thats a false jesus, one warned about Matt 24:11-24

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So what jesus do you believe in ?

under your erroneous dogma, how many times must a person be born again before he/she is really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

Once ! And after that once they believe the Truth.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

When God imputes righteousness to him/her. And we see when right in the verse you quoted:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The words "is counted" are in the present tense (as are the words "believeth" and "him that justifieth").

They are justified the instant they believe. And once they are justified, they are no longer "ungodly"

They were Justified as ungodly , so while in unbelief. those Christ died for are born Justified by His death

The one that worketh not, but believeth (both verbs (worketh not and believeth) on the part of the person are in the present tense).

God that justifieth and counted for righteousness ... again both verbs are in the present tense. So God justifies and imputes righteousness at the time the person believes.

The justifying and the imputing of righteousness did not take place in the past. The justifying and the imputing of righteousness takes place when the person (who is not working) believes.

You cant escape it its God Justifies the ungodly, so they were ungodly when justified. Plus They were Justified when Christ rose from the dead for their Justification Rom 4:25, later they are regenerated and believe. The elect come out the womb with righteousness imputed to them, they had nothing to do with it, that's a blessing solely from the death of Christ. Now I know you cant believe that.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

ummmmm, this is nothing but more of your manipulation of Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous dogma.

The word "acknowledging" is translated from the Greek word epignōsis.

The word "belief" or "believe(ing)" is translated from the Greek word pistis (noun) or pisteuō (verb).

lol, they the same thing, acknowledging the Truth is another way of saying they believe it it to be true. Paul links it with Faith in Titus 1:1


Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; They have been persuaded

So its an act of godliness

 

[FreeGrace2]

renewed



They were Justified as ungodly , so while in unbelief. those Christ died for are born Justified by His death


You cant escape it its God Justifies the ungodly, so they were ungodly when justified.

This is true. And the Bible ALSO says that we (the ungodly) are justified by faith in the blood, a direct reference to the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Plus They were Justified when Christ rose from the dead for their Justification Rom 4:25, later they are regenerated and believe.

Nope. Justification and regeneration all come from believing in Christ.

The elect come out the womb with righteousness imputed to them, they had nothing to do with it, that's a blessing solely from the death of Christ. Now I know you cant believe that.

No one should believe any of this Calvinist false doctrine.

Christ's righteousness isn't imputed to anyone who has not believed. That is clear in Romans 3 and 4. But the poster appears rather ignorant of what the Bible says.

 

[brightfame52]

Being Justified by His Blood apart from our Faith !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Being Justified by His Blood apart from our Faith ! Now false religion denies and discards this sacred truth, that initially and to begin with, that Justification before God, freedeom from all condemnation and death due to sin, is solely by the Blood of Christ alone, and that is the testimony of the text Rom 5:9, and that its true even in light of Rom 5:1, for Justification by the Blood of Christ/and or the Obedience of Christ, which lead to His Death Phil 2:8;Rom 5:19, tis antecedent to ones God given Faith, in fact, its the very thing that is revealed to Faith, that one, prior to believing, had been Justified by the Blood of Christ before Gods Law and Justice.

A particular OT scripture is enlightening here which reads Ex 12:13

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

God passing over in Judgement and destruction is due to Him seeing the Blood of the slain lambs, not because of anything else, the word passover is the heb word pacach and means:

halt , spring over ,A primitive root; to hop, i.e. (figuratively) skip over (or spare);

Remember when God said to Abraham this Gen 18:24,26

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

The Idea is God will not destroy but spare from destruction, and this God would not do to them He sees the Blood of the Lamd in begalf of ! Thats what Rom 5:9 claims Justified by Blood of the Lamb, saved from wrath and or destruction !

See also Joel 2:17;Jonah 4:11; Mal 3:17

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Take that statement and remember what God said of Israel right before the Exodous Ex 4:23

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

If God has seen that Christ, His Lamb of God has shed His Blood for you, then He passes over you in Judgment and condemnation and destruction and wrath, we can never be of those who Paul writes of here 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And that is not because He sees our Faith, but solely because He sees the Blood of the Lamb ! Ex 12:13

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.14

 

[FreeGrace2]

Being Justified by His Blood apart from our Faith !
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Always amazing how Calvinists just keep stuffing their foot in their mouths!!

This guy always quotes Rom 5:9 as if there are no other verses that expand on v.9.

Well, there are plenty of them and his ridiculous claim that justification is "apart from our faith" is totally destroyed by them.

For example:

Romans 5:1 (IN THE SAME CHAPTER, NO LESS)
"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom 3-
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

These verses condemn the poster who claims that justification is "apart from our faith".

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

God, who justifies the ungodly. We don't do the work. God does. God justifies those whom he calls, us, in spite of our being sinners unable to understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Not something fallen people are able to accomplish in and of themselves. .

Neighbour, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And unto what were you baptized?

 

[brightfame52]

Him that Justifieth the Ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. This means God is Justifying them while they are being Ungodly, not when they are believing, but while Ungodly !

Now who are these Ungodly God is Justifying ? Why its those that Christ has died for Rom 5:6

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The Ungodly Christ died for, and His dying for them is how God Justifieth them ! The word ungodly is the greek word asebēs and means:

I.destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

irreverent, i.e. (by extension) impious or wicked:—ungodly (man).

This is their practical state when God is Justifying them by Christ dying for them.

Notice the words Christ died in Rom 5:Vs 6b

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The fact alone that Christ died Justified them, Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Also notice that after dying, He is risen again, which rising again was because of our Justification Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences[died], and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So His resurrection is evidence that those He died for are Justified while they are Ungodly, simply because He died for them !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding you here. But iF I understand that you are saying Jesus IN NO WAY is descending from the "Seed of the woman"

Genesis 3:

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


I believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the "Seed of the woman" promised in Gen 3:15.

THROUGH Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and so on down the line to Mary

I believe Mary was a lineal descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I also believe Joseph was a lineal descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I could not DISAGREE with you more.

Is that what you believe? And if so where are you getting that from?

I believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father.

When the angel spoke to Joseph, the angel said:

Matthew 1:

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


When the angel spoke to Mary, the angel said:

Luke 1:

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


John 1:14 tells us the Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father.

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.
.