Once saved always saved?

[Thewatchman]

Truly Justified, but not Saved. How much clearer can it be that the Two are Distinct? 1 single counterexample disproves it.

I am a little old and I am a little slow are you saying you can be justified by Christ but still not saved

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Dear XJLI, you are basing your doctrine on a misunderstanding lots of verses. ps: which single verse am I misunderstanding?

I guess you mean all the verses you CLAIM mean opposite of the "one verse" I use.

Just look at how you dealt with Romans 11:22: "22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." You ignored completely what it clearly teaches. It teaches that those who apostatize into unbelief will be cut off from Christ just like those who never believed. This is exactly the opposite of what you believe, yet you find some excuses to claim it is just a "metaphor" etc!

The best study method is found in Acts 17:11, where the Bereans "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what XJLI says is true". And I have found that what you claim is not found in Scripture.

Since I use the Berean study method, I'm way ahead of you on that.

Sorry, you're not following the Berean method at all. The Bereans heard the Apostle Paul, searched the Scriptures, understood what he was saying was true, and accepted his authority as an Apostle sent to them by God to teach them.

It really doesn't take much discernment to easily understand what Jesus was talking about in John 15. When He spoke of "abiding", He was talking about fellowship. And those who will bear fruit must be in fellowship with Him. Those believers who are not in fellowship cannot bear fruit. Real simple.

It doesn't take much discernment to see Jesus taught the opposite of what you are claiming: He said branches that do not bear fruit are taken away by His Father: "2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away"

Exactly what you claim can never happen. Your claims are proved false by the Lord's Word Himself more than once.

btw, "burned in the fire" in this agricultural metaphor refers to being discarded from use. To the Jews during Jesus' time, such an idea would have been horrible, since they were so proud of being God's chosen people for service. To be discarded from service would shock them.

False, absolutely false, and just an OSAS way of escapism from what Jesus plainly taught. Jesus is teaching that those who do not continue in communion with Him are cut off and fall away into hellfire: "6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

Once again, nothing about losing salvation. And how silly anyway. Those who claim salvation can be lost simply strongly disagree with the very clear words of John 10:28, where Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

According to you, Jesus Christ contradicted Himself from John 3 to John 6, then again from John 10 to John 15.

According to me, and other NON-OSASers, He absolutely did not. He always taught Salvation based on Perseverance in Faith. You have to abide in Him, the Vine, until the end, in order to receive the eternal crown in Heaven.

Rev 2:10: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

According to you, there is no need to be faithful unto death. Christ says there is. I'll go with Christ, thanks.

Same concept as in John 15:1-6.

No, Romans 11 is yet another disproof of OSAS and was separately addressed above.

Jesus didn't lie in John 10:28. Your opinion cannot be true given what He said.

Jesus didn't lie in John 15:2 and 15:6. Your opinion cannot be true given what He said.

You just don't have any idea what Peter was talking about. Believers who return to "the world" will have a worse life until their death. It has nothing to do with eternity, as you wrongly opine.

Wrong again. Here is the passage.

2 Pet 2:

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

(1) Peter says those who apostatize are worse than those who never knew Christ.
(2) Those who never Christ cannot go to Heaven.
(3) Therefore, those who apostatize cannot go to Heaven.

Real Simple.

Also, what happens to 2 people who are near death, one who is martyred for the Lord, other who chooses to deny Christ, lives just a few days longer, and then dies? Does the 2nd go to heaven too, in your theology? He hardly had any time to face divine discipline. Yet according to you, ultimately, he too goes to heaven, the same as the one who died for Christ.

Just imagine if such an opinion was preached today where Christians are persecuted: many would deny their Faith.

*shaking my head*. Sorry, but this is a terrible theology, and will produce bad and lax fruits if it is widely preached.

God Bless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Dear XJLI, you are basing your doctrine on a misunderstanding lots of verses. ps: which single verse am I misunderstanding?

I guess you mean all the verses you CLAIM mean opposite of the "one verse" I use.

Just look at how you dealt with Romans 11:22: "22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." You ignored completely what it clearly teaches. It teaches that those who apostatize into unbelief will be cut off from Christ just like those who never believed.

I explained what "cut off" meant to 1st Century Jews. Sorry you didn't like it.

This is exactly the opposite of what you believe, yet you find some excuses to claim it is just a "metaphor" etc!

Of course it is a metaphor. The whole passage is based on an agricultural metaphor. That is real clear.

Sorry, you're not following the Berean method at all

Well, I'm sorry that you have completely missed the fact that I AM following it to a T.

The Bereans heard the Apostle Paul, searched the Scriptures, understood what he was saying was true, and accepted his authority as an Apostle sent to them by God to teach them.

OK, I'll take this real slow.

Paul SAID things about Scripture. The Bereans searched the Scriptures to "see IF what Paul SAID was true". And, of course, it WAS true.

That's how I evaluate EVERY poster. Are they SAYING what the Bible SAYS? Or not?

Can you explain plainly how you think I am not following the Berea method at all?

[QUOE]It doesn't take much discernment to see Jesus taught the opposite of what you are claiming: He said branches that do not bear fruit are taken away by His Father: "2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away"[/QUOTE]
And why do you PRESUME or ASSUME that "takes away" means loss of salvation? On what basis?

The real problem is YOUR OWN rejection of Jesus' teaching about having eternal life.

In John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47 Jesus SAID plainly that those who believe have (possess) eternal life.
Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

He couldn't have been any more clear about eternal security. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

This is a slam dunk.

Exactly what you claim can never happen.

What I claim is what Jesus claimed. Recipients of eternal life CANNOT perish.

Your claims are proved false by the Lord's Word Himself more than once.

It is very clear that you do NOT even understand what Jesus says about eternal security.

False, absolutely false, and just an OSAS way of escapism from what Jesus plainly taught.

Again, you are completely clueless about what Jesus taught. He plainly taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. But you refuse to accept that.

Jesus is teaching that those who do not continue in communion with Him are cut off and fall away into hellfire: "6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

OK, so you believe that Jesus was confused apparently and contradicted Himself on occasion. Pitiful.

According to you, Jesus Christ contradicted Himself from John 3 to John 6, then again from John 10 to John 15.

What do you mean by "according to you'? I never said such garbage. It is YOUR opinion that makes Jesus contradict Himself.

According to me, and other NON-OSASers, He absolutely did not.

Prove that John 10:28 doesn't teach eternal security.

He always taught Salvation based on Perseverance in Faith.

He never did. He always taught that salvation is based on trusting in HIM alone for salvation.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, read each verse carefully and point out any verse that says "He always taught Salvation based on Perseverance in Faith."

You have to abide in Him, the Vine, until the end, in order to receive the eternal crown in Heaven.

Well, now you've moved the goal posts. Crowns in heaven are EARNED, unlike salvation which is by grace through faith. Eph 2:8

Rev 2:10: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

According to you, there is no need to be faithful unto death. Christ says there is. I'll go with Christ, thanks.

Since you are so clueless about the Bible, I'll help you out. Crowns are part of eternal rewards, which by definition, are earned. Salvation, which is grace by faith is unearned.

Your views are far from biblical.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

You ignored completely what it clearly teaches. It teaches that those who apostatize into unbelief will be cut off from Christ just like those who never believed.

Of course, IF your interpretation is correct, then it would clearly DENY
12-Dozen Plain And Clear Scriptures About God's ETERNAL Salvation:

God's OPERATION On all HIS New-born babes In Christ
+
God's Eternal Assurance

GRACE, Peace, And JOY...

 

[Thewatchman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Dear XJLI, you are basing your doctrine on a misunderstanding lots of verses. ps: which single verse am I misunderstanding?

I guess you mean all the verses you CLAIM mean opposite of the "one verse" I use.

I explained what "cut off" meant to 1st Century Jews. Sorry you didn't like it.


Of course it is a metaphor. The whole passage is based on an agricultural metaphor. That is real clear.


Well, I'm sorry that you have completely missed the fact that I AM following it to a T.


OK, I'll take this real slow.

Paul SAID things about Scripture. The Bereans searched the Scriptures to "see IF what Paul SAID was true". And, of course, it WAS true.

That's how I evaluate EVERY poster. Are they SAYING what the Bible SAYS? Or not?

Can you explain plainly how you think I am not following the Berea method at all?

[QUOE]It doesn't take much discernment to see Jesus taught the opposite of what you are claiming: He said branches that do not bear fruit are taken away by His Father: "2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away"

And why do you PRESUME or ASSUME that "takes away" means loss of salvation? On what basis?

The real problem is YOUR OWN rejection of Jesus' teaching about having eternal life.

In John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47 Jesus SAID plainly that those who believe have (possess) eternal life.
Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

He couldn't have been any more clear about eternal security. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

This is a slam dunk.


What I claim is what Jesus claimed. Recipients of eternal life CANNOT perish.


It is very clear that you do NOT even understand what Jesus says about eternal security.


Again, you are completely clueless about what Jesus taught. He plainly taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. But you refuse to accept that.


OK, so you believe that Jesus was confused apparently and contradicted Himself on occasion. Pitiful.


What do you mean by "according to you'? I never said such garbage. It is YOUR opinion that makes Jesus contradict Himself.


Prove that John 10:28 doesn't teach eternal security.


He never did. He always taught that salvation is based on trusting in HIM alone for salvation.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, read each verse carefully and point out any verse that says "He always taught Salvation based on Perseverance in Faith."


Well, now you've moved the goal posts. Crowns in heaven are EARNED, unlike salvation which is by grace through faith. Eph 2:8


Since you are so clueless about the Bible, I'll help you out. Crowns are part of eternal rewards, which by definition, are earned. Salvation, which is grace by faith is unearned.

Your views are far from biblical.[/QUOTE]
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

 

[phil36]

Hi Phil. Thanks for the response.

What I mean by post-justification is good works done AFTER justification. In Augustinian theology, which I follow, all good works done before justification (such as those unbelievers do) are merely natural good works and don't have a supernatural reward in Heaven. But the Good Works Christians do, after being justified by faith in Christ, and receiving the Holy Spirit, are supernaturally meritorious and do earn/merit an eternal reward. Thus, those who labor more for the Lord will be rewarded more, according to: "every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour" (1 Cor 3:8)

Could you please clarify if you agree or disagree? Thanks.

Catholic and Lutheran theologians recently signed a joint declaration agreeing that initial justification is by grace through faith and love, and normally happens in Baptism: "25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God's gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it." From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/joint-declaration-on-the-doctrine-of-justification-2356

The Biblical basis for Baptismal Regeneration are passages like John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21 etc etc.

Just quoting one such passage below.

"16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Initial Justification happens by Grace through Faith, and not of works, but in Baptism. Now, if a person legitimately can't be Baptized, then he can make an act of faith in Christ and repentance for his sins, and he will be forgiven. But normally washing away of sins, as the above passage indicates, happens in Baptism.

And similarly, we believe Continual Sanctification happens through Holy Communion, as John 6 indicates, and if we make use of this means of sanctification, we will be sanctified faster by God, bear more fruit, and finally receive Perseverance.

Jn 6:56: "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him."

Jn 15:5: "He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

If God intended us to rely on faith alone, and e.g. never go to our churches for Baptism, Communion etc, why did He institute them in the first place? Any thoughts on that? Grace through Faith, yes, but Grace through Faith in the ordnances/sacraments of baptism, communion etc.

God Bless.

Hi Xavier,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, you asked if I agreed with your statement, and the answer is no.

After reading your post I think your answer to my question is that you believe (as Rome) that the instrumental cause of justification is baptism. The problem with this is that there is no biblical warrant for this (I did a quick check of the scriptures you provided). So your left with faith plus works for your salvation, partly Christ's, partly yours and in the final analysis if you still have not worked enough and still have some sin you can work it of in purgatory.. This is not good news for anyone. Especially since purgatory does not exist, hell does! It's a whole system of works that traps you.. Of course it's not Christ who free's you from the bondage of sin, it's you through works and holy communion with Rome.


The Gospel view is that the ground for justification is Christ's righteousness.
The instrumental cause of justification is faith. Its a declaration from God that those who have faith in Christ are declared just. Christ's righteousness is imputed to them and are declared just not by their meirts but by Christ's merits alone through faith alone and all by grace alone.

The righteousness is God's not man's but is appropriated by man by faith (Romans 3:21-26; Romans 4:5-8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). The fore by Faith people are declared just. Justification is a declaration. The man is created anew secure in Christ and lives his life in obedience to Christ.

And yet,

Obedience itself is a work of the Spirit that bears fruit and not meritorious unless one should boast. Bearing fruit are the good works that man does. And thankfully the Holy Spirit works these in us.

For by grace you have been saved a through faith. And this is b not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them (Eph 2:8-10).


To put it simply Xavier. If there is no imputation, there is no sola fide, and if the is no sola fide there is no gospel.

I hope you think about it. There is a real freedom to the gospel.. There is liberty, set free from bondage from sin and our own self efforts. Its all by grace, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And why do you PRESUME or ASSUME that "takes away" means loss of salvation? On what basis?

The real problem is YOUR OWN rejection of Jesus' teaching about having eternal life.

In John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47 Jesus SAID plainly that those who believe have (possess) eternal life.
Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

He couldn't have been any more clear about eternal security. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

This is a slam dunk.


What I claim is what Jesus claimed. Recipients of eternal life CANNOT perish.


It is very clear that you do NOT even understand what Jesus says about eternal security.


Again, you are completely clueless about what Jesus taught. He plainly taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. But you refuse to accept that.


OK, so you believe that Jesus was confused apparently and contradicted Himself on occasion. Pitiful.


What do you mean by "according to you'? I never said such garbage. It is YOUR opinion that makes Jesus contradict Himself.


Prove that John 10:28 doesn't teach eternal security.


He never did. He always taught that salvation is based on trusting in HIM alone for salvation.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, read each verse carefully and point out any verse that says "He always taught Salvation based on Perseverance in Faith."

Well, now you've moved the goal posts. Crowns in heaven are EARNED, unlike salvation which is by grace through faith. Eph 2:8

Since you are so clueless about the Bible, I'll help you out. Crowns are part of eternal rewards, which by definition, are earned. Salvation, which is grace by faith is unearned.

Your views are far from biblical

.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding??? Do you really think this passage in Romans 1 refutes any of the verses I shared above???

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Hi Xavier,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, you asked if I agreed with your statement, and the answer is no.

After reading your post I think your answer to my question is that you believe (as Rome) that the instrumental cause of justification is baptism. The problem with this is that there is no biblical warrant for this (I did a quick check of the scriptures you provided). So your left with faith plus works for your salvation, partly Christ's, partly yours and in the final analysis if you still have not worked enough and still have some sin you can work it of in purgatory.. This is not good news for anyone. Especially since purgatory does not exist, hell does! It's a whole system of works that traps you.. Of course it's not Christ who free's you from the bondage of sin, it's you through works and holy communion with Rome.


The Gospel view is that the ground for justification is Christ's righteousness.
The instrumental cause of justification is faith. Its a declaration from God that those who have faith in Christ are declared just. Christ's righteousness is imputed to them and are declared just not by their meirts but by Christ's merits alone through faith alone and all by grace alone.

The righteousness is God's not man's but is appropriated by man by faith (Romans 3:21-26; Romans 4:5-8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). The fore by Faith people are declared just. Justification is a declaration. The man is created anew secure in Christ and lives his life in obedience to Christ.

And yet,

Obedience itself is a work of the Spirit that bears fruit and not meritorious unless one should boast. Bearing fruit are the good works that man does. And thankfully the Holy Spirit works these in us.

For by grace you have been saved a through faith. And this is b not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them (Eph 2:8-10).


To put it simply Xavier. If there is no imputation, there is no sola fide, and if the is no sola fide there is no gospel.

I hope you think about it. There is a real freedom to the gospel.. There is liberty, set free from bondage from sin and our own self efforts. Its all by grace, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

Hi Phil. Thanks for the response. Before I reply, can you respond to just the 4 passages I explicitly quoted above?

1. 1 Cor 3:8 on reward for labors for the Lord.
2. Acts 22:16 that Baptism washes away sins.
3. John 6:56 that Holy Communion makes us abide in Christ.
4. Jn 15:5 that the one who abides in Christ bears much fruit.

I also cited 1 Cor 3:13-15 earlier. That passage also teaches that good works after justification are meritorious/earn rewards. It also teaches that those who neglect sanctification and good works are disciplined and only "saved by fire".

I agree Justification is by Grace through Faith, although not by Faith Alone, because the Bible teaches the opposite: "24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Sola fide is explicitly denied by St. James here.

So, yes, we probably disagree. Btw, Baptismal Regeneration is held by the Lutheran church also. Source: "Baptismal regeneration is the name given to doctrines held by the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, Oriental Orthodox churches, Anglican, Lutheran and many Protestant denominations which maintain that salvation is intimately linked to the act of baptism, without necessarily holding that salvation is impossible apart from it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptismal_regeneration So Luther believed Grace, through Faith Alone, but in Baptism.

I believe certainly Justification is by Grace though Faith, not Faith Alone but "faith that works by love" (Gal 5:6), in Baptism.

The fountain of Baptism for the washing of sins was prophesied in the OT itself: "“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity." (Zech 13:1)

Some believe that Baptism and Communion are purely symbolic and play no role in Justification or Sanctification at all; that's incorrect and even Martin Luther himself did not interpret his axiom "sola fide" like that. James rejects Sola Fide.

Justification happens by Faith and Love, in Baptism. Sanctification happens by Faith and Love, above all in Holy Communion. This is why Our Lord told us to abide in Him to bear fruit. He explained we abide in Him by eating His Flesh/Drinking His Blood.

Nobody is saying faith etc are unimportant. But faith and love through the ordnances/sacraments the Lord instituted.

God Bless.

 

[phil36]

So Luther believed Grace, through Faith Alone, but in Baptism

Hi Xavier,

Just a quick note. I dont think you understand Luther.

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law, or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us...Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31). -
Martin Luther, The Smalcald Articles in Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 2005), 289, Part two, Article 1.

For the leading service he bequeathed to the Church “was the entire destruction of the doctrine of human merit, and the thorough establishment of the great scriptural truth of a purely gratuitous justification, through faith alone.”1 In addition to uncovering this hidden gem, Luther exposed its value in teaching that it is the article upon which the church stands or falls. (Quote Themelios journal. Vol34, issue 2)

Certainly it has been noted that on the one hand he affirms 'Justification by faith alone (declarative and not in Baptism)' and his views on baptismal regeneration. Luther himself didn't view any inconsistency. However we must remember that Luther view of baptismal regeneration does not have the same meaning or substance as that of Roman Catholics. (no matter what later Lutherans believe).

A good article on this is here the writer takes the position that holding the view of justification by faith alone and baptismal regeneration are inconsistent.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...ed-martin-luther-and-the-doctrine-of-baptism/

Anyhow, I just wanted to clear that up.. For Luther, justification by faith alone (not in baptism) is the doctrine by which the church stood or fell. Pretty much opposite of what you have been trying to claim, no matter what later Lutherans believe.

Regarding the scriptures you posted I should have time tomorrow to reply to you. Probably one at time - depending on time.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

knowing only a few Condemned Humans full of Sin will Follow God does not mean He still did not die for the entire WORLD. because He did say, He was sent to DIE for the WORLD!

He died for the entire world simply means that everyone is eligible and that God can choose anyone to receive salvation. Many are called to receive the message but few are chosen ( or predestined) to accept it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

He died for the entire world simply means that everyone is eligible and that God can choose anyone to receive salvation.

That is a self-contradictory statement. If Christ died for all, it means that all are eligible for salvation. So if God were to pick and choose some to be saved, He would be undermining Himself and Christ. Do you see the absurdity of such a belief?

 

[FreeGrace2]

He died for the entire world simply means that everyone is eligible and that God can choose anyone to receive salvation.

It does not mean that! His dying for all of humanity means what it says: whoever believes will have eternal life and shall not perish.

As to "God can choose anyone to receive salvation", the Bible directly addresses exactly WHO God "chooses to save".

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

And He is PLEASED to do it!

Many are called to receive the message but few are chosen ( or predestined) to accept it.

No one is "predestined" to salvation.

The Bible addresses that as well.

Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

This verse is NOT about salvation, but rather, believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

During the believer's life, that refers to progressive sanctification, whereby the believer becomes more Christ-like. At the resurrection, all believers will receive glorified bodies, just like Jesus'.

 

[Randy4u2c]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

I would question whether they really had faith in God from the beginning. If you truly have faith in God and believe his word to be true, you have power over all your enemies. It seems that maybe their faith was lacking and Satan moved in to remove that planted seed of truth, or they were being taught the word falsely which caused them to err and fall away.

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles,

No, sir. This is not debated in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Because Christians are perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. The Word of their Father are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. And of his own will begat he them with the word of truth, that they should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. The scriptures testify that it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. As it is written, there is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

But before discussing this simple precept. Let us first make sure that we are christians. The apostles preached since the day of pentecost: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation. Because the Lord commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Rather than responding to specific posters, I've decided to make a general answer.
As for the people who fall away never having had faith in God - many have, or at least claimed to have. I refer to someone like Matt Dillahunty of "The Atheist Experience".
For 20-odd years - someone who was born into a Southern Baptist family, gave himself to (God/ the cause of Christ), was a faithful follower, was intent on taking up the Ministry, in line with instruction from 1Peter 3:15 and the like, and, to paraphrase him, could not find justification to support the claims in the Bible. He then became an atheist.
However valid or invalid his findings were, I find it unfeasible that he never really believed. Was he pretending all those years?! Was this a (childhood-thru-20s) scam? There are apparently other, former colleagues to can testify to his (at least apparent) walk with Christ.
As for the seed planted and then being whisked away - this seems to allude to Christ's parable. I don't know how long it would take for the seed to "drift away" -30 years seems a long time.

 

[Eli1]

Rather than responding to specific posters, I've decided to make a general answer.
As for the people who fall away never having had faith in God - many have, or at least claimed to have. I refer to someone like Matt Dillahunty of "The Atheist Experience".
For 20-odd years - someone who was born into a Southern Baptist family, gave himself to (God/ the cause of Christ), was a faithful follower, was intent on taking up the Ministry, in line with instruction from 1Peter 3:15 and the like, and, to paraphrase him, could not find justification to support the claims in the Bible. He then became an atheist.
However valid or invalid his findings were, I find it unfeasible that he never really believed. Was he pretending all those years?! Was this a (childhood-thru-20s) scam? There are apparently other, former colleagues to can testify to his (at least apparent) walk with Christ.
As for the seed planted and then being whisked away - this seems to allude to Christ's parable. I don't know how long it would take for the seed to "drift away" -30 years seems a long time.

Okay so framed in this way, this question becomes a question of Free will vs No free will and the whole Calvinism thing you mentioned (which I don’t like).
‘If we have no free will (and Calvinism is true) then this would explain why one person believes in God when is faced with the mystery of existence and the other doesn’t.
‘This also comes to a bit of a contradiction with the notion of a “man raised by the wolves in a forest” because the man will naturally seek for a higher meaning and a Creator.
So it’s all a big mystery in the end.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I was born again as a teenager and walked on and off with the Lord for many years, mostly off. I finally returned three and a half years ago and haven't looked back.

People try to tell me I was never truly born again but I know better. It's a horrifying experience to have been born of God and then to turn your back on Him; having tasted the good things of the Kingdom and then walk away. There's no doubt in my mind that if I had died in my rebellion where I would've ended up.

2 Peter 2:20 says: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning." If I was never born again to begin with, how would the latter state be worse than the first? I'd simply return to my old life and be none the worse for it. No, this is talking about someone who was born again then abandoned their faith.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Okay so framed in this way, this question becomes a question of Free will vs No free will and the whole Calvinism thing you mentioned (which I don’t like).
‘If we have no free will (and Calvinism is true) then this would explain why one person believes in God when is faced with the mystery of existence and the other doesn’t.
‘This also comes to a bit of a contradiction with the notion of a “man raised by the wolves in a forest” because the man will naturally seek for a higher meaning and a Creator.
So it’s all a big mystery in the end.

I may be missing something, but I don't see how this issue is a free-will v no-free-will issue or Calvinistic. I can see from a Calvinistic (which I don't have) position, man has no input into whether he believes - it's all God's work, but the issue here is - if a person believes, can he lose his belief? I don't know if you've known any cases such as Dillahunty's - in person or "remotely" - but I'd be interested in any opinion you'd like to mention as to whether it's possible to lose belief.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

I've git

I was born again as a teenager and walked on and off with the Lord for many years, mostly off. I finally returned three and a half years ago and haven't looked back.

People try to tell me I was never truly born again but I know better. It's a horrifying experience to have been born of God and then to turn your back on Him; having tasted the good things of the Kingdom and then walk away. There's no doubt in my mind that if I had died in my rebellion where I would've ended up.

2 Peter 2:20 says: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning." If I was never born again to begin with, how would the latter state be worse than the first? I'd simply return to my old life and be none the worse for it. No, this is talking about someone who was born again then abandoned their faith.

T

Thanks for your input.
I've got to go now, but I'll try to get back later.

 

[Eli1]

I may be missing something, but I don't see how this issue is a free-will v no-free-will issue or Calvinistic. I can see from a Calvinistic (which I don't have) position, man has no input into whether he believes - it's all God's work, but the issue here is - if a person believes, can he lose his belief? I don't know if you've known any cases such as Dillahunty's - in person or "remotely" - but I'd be interested in any opinion you'd like to mention as to whether it's possible to lose belief.

Yes but this is the thing. This whole notion of “losing belief” becomes irrelevant when we have no free will. This means that God is in complete Control of our existence according to His plan.
So we have no free will. The “losing belief” part is an illusion on our end.