Once saved always saved?

[FreeGrace2]

Rather than responding to specific posters, I've decided to make a general answer.
As for the people who fall away never having had faith in God - many have, or at least claimed to have.

No one can "fall away" if they never believed. In Luke 8:13, the second soil "believed for a while" and "then fell away". So one MUST first believe before they can "fall away".

I wonder why that isn't obvious to others.

I refer to someone like Matt Dillahunty of "The Atheist Experience".
For 20-odd years - someone who was born into a Southern Baptist family, gave himself to (God/ the cause of Christ), was a faithful follower, was intent on taking up the Ministry, in line with instruction from 1Peter 3:15 and the like, and, to paraphrase him, could not find justification to support the claims in the Bible. He then became an atheist.

Great point! Yes, there actual believers who have fallen away from the faith. The story of Matt is similar to the story of the evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham when he started out. Charles Templeton.

However valid or invalid his findings were, I find it unfeasible that he never really believed.

You are quite correct that Matt's having "never believed" to be unfeasible.

Was he pretending all those years?! Was this a (childhood-thru-20s) scam? There are apparently other, former colleagues to can testify to his (at least apparent) walk with Christ.

Exactly! And the same for Chuck Templeton.

As for the seed planted and then being whisked away - this seems to allude to Christ's parable. I don't know how long it would take for the seed to "drift away" -30 years seems a long time.

Time is irrelevant. The Bible is clear about who will face condemnation; those who 'have not believed', which means those who NEVER BELIEVED.

It is obvious that in both cases, Matt and Chuck did believe, and even for quite a number of years. They were saved. They "shall never perish" because Jesus said so in John 10:28 about those He gives eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay so framed in this way, this question becomes a question of Free will vs No free will and the whole Calvinism thing you mentioned (which I don’t like).
‘If we have no free will (and Calvinism is true) then this would explain why one person believes in God when is faced with the mystery of existence and the other doesn’t.
‘This also comes to a bit of a contradiction with the notion of a “man raised by the wolves in a forest” because the man will naturally seek for a higher meaning and a Creator.
So it’s all a big mystery in the end.

Could you spell out the "big mystery"? What that is? Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was born again as a teenager and walked on and off with the Lord for many years, mostly off. I finally returned three and a half years ago and haven't looked back.

People try to tell me I was never truly born again but I know better. It's a horrifying experience to have been born of God and then to turn your back on Him; having tasted the good things of the Kingdom and then walk away. There's no doubt in my mind that if I had died in my rebellion where I would've ended up.

You would have ended up where ALL SAVED PEOPLE end up; in heaven. How do I know? Jesus made that crystal clear in His teaching in John 5:24 that "whoever believes" possesses (has) eternal life", meaning from the moment one becomes a believer, they possess eternal life, coupled with John 10:28, where Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

What you learned from your experience is that God certainly disciplines His children and His discipline is painful, Heb 12:11.

2 Peter 2:20 says: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning." If I was never born again to begin with, how would the latter state be worse than the first? I'd simply return to my old life and be none the worse for it. No, this is talking about someone who was born again then abandoned their faith.

This is not about losing salvation. The words "the end" refer to one's life on earth after getting 'entangled again in the world'. So your life, as you note, was worse off after you wandered from the faith. That could have continued until your death. However, since Jesus gave you eternal life WHEN you believed (John 5:24) you would STILL "never perish" per John 10:28.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Rather than responding to specific posters, I've decided to make a general answer.
As for the people who fall away never having had faith in God - many have, or at least claimed to have. I refer to someone like Matt Dillahunty of "The Atheist Experience".
For 20-odd years - someone who was born into a Southern Baptist family, gave himself to (God/ the cause of Christ), was a faithful follower, was intent on taking up the Ministry, in line with instruction from 1Peter 3:15 and the like, and, to paraphrase him, could not find justification to support the claims in the Bible. He then became an atheist.
However valid or invalid his findings were, I find it unfeasible that he never really believed. Was he pretending all those years?! Was this a (childhood-thru-20s) scam? There are apparently other, former colleagues to can testify to his (at least apparent) walk with Christ.
As for the seed planted and then being whisked away - this seems to allude to Christ's parable. I don't know how long it would take for the seed to "drift away" -30 years seems a long time.

Andrewmorgan,

I highlighted a very important point that we should consider. It sounds like he "tasted of that heavenly gift", but did not partake of it.
Since this former preacher "gave himself to (God/ the cause of Christ), was a faithful follower...", he was trusting in his own false gospel of good works. There is much written about this subject. I am not able to cover it all right now, but will share this for your edification.

"For God so loved the world that a southern Baptist preacher gave himself and was a faithful follower...should not perish but have everlasting life?".

Is that the version of the "bible" that he is going by?
Instead of "Once saved, always saved", maybe he should be known as "I never knew you."

Salvation is a gift that He paid for. To add anyone else's life, service to what Jesus did is putting ones faith in self. Like most preachers, he has the gospel backwards.

Jesus says of those preachers/ prophets,

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you...."

 

[Eli1]

Could you spell out the "big mystery"? What that is? Thanks.

I just don’t know, is what I’m saying. I don’t know how God works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Andrewmorgan,

I highlighted a very important point that we should consider. It sounds like he "tasted of that heavenly gift", but did not partake of it.

Except the Greek word for "taste" in the verse is the exact same word in Heb 2:9 where Jesus "tasted death for everyone". And He wasn't just licking an ice cream cone.

Since this former preacher "gave himself to (God/ the cause of Christ), was a faithful follower...", he was trusting in his own false gospel of good works. There is much written about this subject. I am not able to cover it all right now, but will share this for your edification.

"For God so loved the world that a southern Baptist preacher gave himself and was a faithful follower...should not perish but have everlasting life?".

There seems to be a lot of presumption in this. How do you know he didn't really believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, and through trust in His work on the cross, was given eternal life when he believed (John 5:24)?

Is that the version of the "bible" that he is going by?

You have only presumption.

Instead of "Once saved, always saved", maybe he should be known as "I never knew you."

Everyone who knew him recognized him as a believer, according to the account. While that doesn't nail it, those who are pretending cannot convince everyone.

Are you aware that Jesus taught eternal security? He taught in John 5:24 that when a person becomes a believer, they POSSESS eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 He taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you...."

It might not have occurred to you, but by Jesus saying "I never knew you" He was indicating that none of them ever believed in Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you spell out the "big mystery"? What that is? Thanks.

I just don’t know, is what I’m saying. I don’t know how God works.

Is it a topic that is a mystery to you, or everything in life? That's what I meant.

The Bible tells us how God works. He told us in His Word. That's why He gave us His Word.

 

[Eli1]

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you spell out the "big mystery"? What that is? Thanks.

Is it a topic that is a mystery to you, or everything in life? That's what I meant.

The Bible tells us how God works. He told us in His Word. That's why He gave us His Word.

Oh.
A few things in life are a mystery to me including this topic.
Also the Bible doesn’t tell you a lot of things about an average daily life in year 2022. Like how to make a phone call, launch satellites in space or how to get on the internet.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh.
A few things in life are a mystery to me including this topic.
Also the Bible doesn’t tell you a lot of things about an average daily life in year 2022. Like how to make a phone call, launch satellites in space or how to get on the internet.

Ok, you're just punkin' me.

 

[Eli1]

Ok, you're just punkin' me.

Hey, you wanna talk about it in detail? Open a thread of your own and I’ll be there.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hey, you wanna talk about it in detail? Open a thread of your own and I’ll be there.

nothing to talk about, given the questions (mysteries) you noted. The Bible also doesn't tell some posters how to format their posts either.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Yes but this is the thing. This whole notion of “losing belief” becomes irrelevant when we have no free will. This means that God is in complete Control of our existence according to His plan.
So we have no free will. The “losing belief” part is an illusion on our end.

With so many posts by so many people over (often) so much time, it's easy sometimes to make errors, so I may be covering a point previously made clear. With that in mind, may I ask - Are you a believer in Calvinism? I thought not, judging by your previous posts, but your last point about God being in complete control in the way you phrased it seems to indicate you're taking the Calvinist stance of monergistic sovereignty, rather than what they call synergism.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

As a general point "to whom it may concern" - this may have been previously covered, but the specific situation I'm particularly interesting in is (not just becoming a non-believer, but) becoming an anti-theist. To mention Dillahunty again - he rails at God, describing Him as a thug (particularly re. slavery), etc..
Having read about God's dealings with man, primarily in the OT, but also in the NT, I think He's not tending to tolerate overt opposition. It seems some people think that people like Dillahunty were and are saved. I find it hard to believe that God would invite such an enemy into his loving arms - it doesn't seem His style.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Except the Greek word for "taste" in the verse is the exact same word in Heb 2:9 where Jesus "tasted death for everyone". And He wasn't just licking an ice cream cone.


There seems to be a lot of presumption in this. How do you know he didn't really believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, and through trust in His work on the cross, was given eternal life when he believed (John 5:24)?


You have only presumption.


Everyone who knew him recognized him as a believer, according to the account. While that doesn't nail it, those who are pretending cannot convince everyone.

Are you aware that Jesus taught eternal security? He taught in John 5:24 that when a person becomes a believer, they POSSESS eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 He taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.


It might not have occurred to you, but by Jesus saying "I never knew you" He was indicating that none of them ever believed in Him.

I've had trouble with some people's understanding of the account of those "who will come to Jesus on that day".
It's said by some that they weren't true believers and they were doing things relying on themselves in some way. I find that strange, as they (apparently successfully) did miracles IN JESUS' NAME.
How would that be possible, in light of the idea that "bad trees cannot produce good fruit"?
There may be an obvious answer which I'm missing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've had trouble with some people's understanding of the account of those "who will come to Jesus on that day".
It's said by some that they weren't true believers and they were doing things relying on themselves in some way. I find that strange, as they (apparently successfully) did miracles IN JESUS' NAME.
How would that be possible, in light of the idea that "bad trees cannot produce good fruit"?

It is clear from what Jesus said that their whole basis for entering the kingdom was on their own works. They thought they could earn salvation by doing good works.

There may be an obvious answer which I'm missing.

Consider that Satan is quite capable of performing supernatural events. Think Job and wind. And all the false prophets in the OT and in the Tribulation who will do supernatural things.

Satan is the master deceiver. One of his tricks is to impress people by supernatural events.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

It is clear from what Jesus said that their whole basis for entering the kingdom was on their own works. They thought they could earn salvation by doing good works.


Consider that Satan is quite capable of performing supernatural events. Think Job and wind. And all the false prophets in the OT and in the Tribulation who will do supernatural things.

Satan is the master deceiver. One of his tricks is to impress people by supernatural events.

Jesus told the "miracle workers" why they wouldn't enter the kingdom. It was because they didn't do "the will of His father" - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned, etc..

 

[Mem]

I've had trouble with some people's understanding of the account of those "who will come to Jesus on that day".
It's said by some that they weren't true believers and they were doing things relying on themselves in some way. I find that strange, as they (apparently successfully) did miracles IN JESUS' NAME.
How would that be possible, in light of the idea that "bad trees cannot produce good fruit"?
There may be an obvious answer which I'm missing.

That you've added a parenthetical explanation of their miracles show a need for it to show a textual indication their prophesies and miracles were successful. Why should we assume this going solely on their proclamation to the "Lord, Lord." Jesus' point was that, though they might express the sentiment twice, they never truly intimated Him with that genuine regard even once, therefore He never knew them in any sense of intimacy. I think the obvious answer is that Jesus answered them, "No, you didn't."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus told the "miracle workers" why they wouldn't enter the kingdom. It was because they didn't do "the will of His father" - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned, etc..

Uh, yes and no.

They wouldn't enter the kingdom because they didn't do "the will of His father".

But YOUR description of what that is misses the mark by a lot. Your answer results in a works salvation. Grace REFUTES that.

This is the will of Jesus' Father, stated by Jesus Himself.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 DIDN'T HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and for the REASON Jesus stated in Jn 6:40.

It seems you yet don't understand the gospel message. You are into religion rather than relationship, which is Christianity.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Uh, yes and no.

They wouldn't enter the kingdom because they didn't do "the will of His father".

But YOUR description of what that is misses the mark by a lot. Your answer results in a works salvation. Grace REFUTES that.

This is the will of Jesus' Father, stated by Jesus Himself.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 DIDN'T HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and for the REASON Jesus stated in Jn 6:40.

It seems you yet don't understand the gospel message. You are into religion rather than relationship, which is Christianity.

It may be I AM missing something basic. I realise the issue about works not being what saves people. But I'm just reading what Jesus says. The men said "We've done...in your name" - for what it's worth, I repeat - apparently successfully. I see nothing in that verse to indicate Jesus didn't simply condemn them for failing to "feed the hungry, etc.". As for works salvation generally - what about the people who "did works" in Jesus' time and beyond. Did Jesus condemn them, too? I

Uh, yes and no.

They wouldn't enter the kingdom because they didn't do "the will of His father".

But YOUR description of what that is misses the mark by a lot. Your answer results in a works salvation. Grace REFUTES that.

This is the will of Jesus' Father, stated by Jesus Himself.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 DIDN'T HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and for the REASON Jesus stated in Jn 6:40.

It seems you yet don't understand the gospel message. You are into religion rather than relationship, which is Christianity.

Uh, yes and no.

They wouldn't enter the kingdom because they didn't do "the will of His father".

But YOUR description of what that is misses the mark by a lot. Your answer results in a works salvation. Grace REFUTES that.

This is the will of Jesus' Father, stated by Jesus Himself.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 DIDN'T HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and for the REASON Jesus stated in Jn 6:40.

It seems you yet don't understand the gospel message. You are into religion rather than relationship, which is Christianity.

I thought one of the points of Jesus' miracles was to demonstrate that "God was with Him" (He had His authority to do wonderful works in His name). How is it compatible with those who weren't Christians also doing miracles?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It may be I AM missing something basic. I realise the issue about works not being what saves people.

But I'm just reading what Jesus says. The men said "We've done...in your name" - for what it's worth, I repeat - apparently successfully.

Satan has supernatural powers. Consider what he did with wind and Job's children. Consider what the angel did to the iron gates that lead to the city after getting Peter out of prison. Consider what the antichrist will do with "fire coming down from heaven", Etc.

I see nothing in that verse to indicate Jesus didn't simply condemn them for failing to "feed the hungry, etc.". As for works salvation generally - what about the people who "did works" in Jesus' time and beyond. Did Jesus condemn them, too?

Jesus condemned that crowd by the words "I NEVER knew you".

How could Jesus say that to anyone who HAD believed in Him for salvation, and for whom He gave them the gift of eternal life? Jn 10:28

I thought one of the points of Jesus' miracles was to demonstrate that "God was with Him" (He had His authority to do wonderful works in His name).

This is true. However, the crowd erroneously thought they could earn entrance into the kingdom (heaven) by what THEY did, instead of trusting in what Jesus DID for them. That is the difference.

They were religious, yes. But saved, no.

How is it compatible with those who weren't Christians also doing miracles?

It isn't compatible at all.

God never credits human effort. Whether a believer or unbeliever. He only credits trust/faith in what His Son did and what the Holy Spirit does in those He indwells. And that requires being filled with the Spirit, which is a command to obey.

So, do you know HOW to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Eph 5:18