"The rich man And Lazarus..."

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Mar 4, 2020
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The rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

Right before the rich man and Lazarus story the Pharisees were listening.

Luke 16:14
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.

Luke 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
The discourse actually beings in Luke 15, where at the beginning tax collectors and sinners were present. The Rich Man and Lazarus comes at the end of a long line of parables to an audience who weren't His disciples. His disciples were present, but the audience weren't only His disciples. Hence Jesus was speaking in parables.

Runningman did you point this out already?
I think a few people have pointed it out, but yes I did at one point. It's definitely worth mentioning again to give people another chance to look at the words of Jesus and hopefully not reject them this time. Give these people a lot of grace and patience, some of them have been thoroughly indoctrinated in various denominations/cults.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
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"While people in the Old Testament were saved by the grace of God when they trusted in Him (saving faith), their sins were not yet washed away (atoned for) by the blood of Jesus."

That rubbish! Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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If the narrative doesn't fit you must acquit.

Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that their father is the devil.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If this rich man is a picture or real Pharisee in hell, the grave, whatever. Abraham would have said I'm not your father.
The unsaved will never ask for mercy.
Pharisee think Abraham his father

matt 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to ourfather: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”
imply Pharisee think abraham his father, that is way Jesus warned him
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Pharisee think Abraham his father

matt 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to ourfather: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”
imply Pharisee think abraham his father, that is way Jesus warned him
The rich man referred to father Abraham as his father. A clue that Abraham wanted to help him, such as a father would, is here:

Luke 16:26
26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Abraham confirmed there are those who actually want to go help the rich man, but are otherwise unable to.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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The rich man referred to father Abraham as his father. A clue that Abraham wanted to help him, such as a father would, is here:

Luke 16:26
26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Abraham confirmed there are those who actually want to go help the rich man, but are otherwise unable to.
My post is to clarify the post before that Pharisee‘s father is devil
but according to Pharisee their father is Abraham
 
Mar 4, 2020
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My post is to clarify the post before that Pharisee‘s father is devil
but according to Pharisee their father is Abraham
I’m just clarifying that Abraham is the rich man’s father. Either spiritual father, seed of Abraham, or both.

Luke 16
24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Abraham called the rich man son.

Can you explain why Abraham confirmed the rich man in torment is still his son regardless of his situation?
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
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My post is to clarify the post before that Pharisee‘s father is devil
but according to Pharisee their father is Abraham
What I'm saying is that Jesus didn't let that slide. The Pharisees said Abraham is their father....Notice how Jesus turned Abraham to God and said God is not their Father. Therefore, Father Abraham in that parable the rich man and Lazarus is God and not OT Abraham with the rich man in the good and bad side of Hades.

The rich man cried Father Abraham. God would have said, "I'm not your Father."
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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No it's definitely not a parable. I proved it wasn't.

Actually, I have proved the Rich Man and Lazarus is a Parable or the Bible stands in contradiction of itself. I.e., there is no mention of a place of torment in Moses or the Prophets for the rich man and his family to have been aware of.

Since the Bible is error free, it's definitely a parable. You shouldn't be promoting otherwise.
You didn’t prove anything other than stating you believe Jesus is a liar.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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What I'm saying is that Jesus didn't let that slide. The Pharisees said Abraham is their father....Notice how Jesus turned Abraham to God and said God is not their Father. Therefore, Father Abraham in that parable the rich man and Lazarus is God and not OT Abraham with the rich man in the good and bad side of Hades.
We have some amazing "FACT CHECKERS" on this forum (as evident from this post). What would we do without all the "fact-checking" in this thread?o_O
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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Verse in question:
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

What you probably don't know (my assumption). Greek has no punctuation. This is another example of translator bias to fit the grammar with their preconceived theological position.

You can translate this verse two ways and both would be technically correct grammatically:

1. And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
2. And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The difference is the placement of the comma. If like many translations you place the comma before the word today, then when we read it in English is sounds like Jesus is promising the thief that on that very day 2,000 years ago the thief would be with him in paradise on that very day.

If however, you place the comma after the word today, then Jesus is promising the thief on that day 2,000 years ago that the thief WILL BE (future) with Him in Paradise.

Second problem is your understanding of the word Paradise; it means a lush garden.

G3857 matches the Greek παράδεισος (paradeisos),

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3857/kjv/tr/0-1/

Gen2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden (paradeisos) eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden (paradeisos) of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Ez 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden (paradeisos) of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise (paradesisos) of God.

The tree of life was here on earth in which Adam was kicked out from least he eat and live forever. The paradise (Garden) of God is in the future Kingdom where it grow 12 fruits, one for each month in Jerusalem (Ez 47:1-12 ->Rev 22:1-3)

Third, the context of the promise made to the thief is based upon the thief's knowledge of the future kingdom, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” The thief wasn't talking about ascending to heaven upon death; he was speaking of Christ second coming and the resurrection of the dead.

Hope this helps, helped me a lot when someone explained it to me.
I was thinking of your post but it doesn’t settle well with regards to the following:

Scripture does not say, assuredly I say to you today, blessed are the poor in spirit, or assuredly I say to you today, the meek shall inherit the earth, or assuredly I say to you today, the lion shall lay down with the lamb, etc. Therefore to me it seems the word today regarding the thief on the cross means he was going to be in paradise that day.

However, and I’m obviously contradicting myself, I believe Jesus was in hades for three days after He died so there again, where was the thief during that time?

That said, I appreciate what you share and look forward to learning from you.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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You didn’t prove anything other than stating you believe Jesus is a liar.
That is really the crux of the matter. Only Jesus -- who is God -- would know precisely whatever was happening in Hades. And only Jesus could give us such insight into the afterlife. He had also planned all along that while His body lay in the tomb, He would be in Hades for three days and three nights (just like Jonah), after which not only would He rise from the dead, but He would take all the OT saints from Hades (their virtual prison) to New Jerusalem (wherein is Paradise).

Wherefore He [God the Holy Spirit] saith, When He [Christ] ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He [Christ] ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth [Hades]? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.

"He led captivity captive" when He tore down the gates of Hades (not Hell) and released all the OT saints who had been waiting there. Abraham was of course the most outstanding, since it was "Abraham who believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness".
 
Mar 4, 2020
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You didn’t prove anything other than stating you believe Jesus is a liar.
On one hand I fail to see why I should dignify your false witness with a response, on the other hand now I need to defend the integrity of Jesus from scoffers like you. I can’t accept that people will possibly believe Jesus is a liar because you lied and said I stated I believe Jesus is a liar.

Got a problem? Quote the comment I ever claimed such a thing and report it if you find it. If you have nothing to prove the false claims with then I assure you that YOU are the problem here.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Who told you that souls become dead? The devil.
Ephesians 2:5
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
This isn't about our souls. If a soul should die, you wouldn't function at all. No thinking, no doing, no nothing.

This verse refers to being spiritually dead, not functionally dead. There's a huge difference.

Your soul is your immaterial self; complete with consciousness, conscience, feelings/emotions, etc. If the soul dies, you not be here any more. And there would be nothing to save. Think about it.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
And there is no spiritual or moral lesson for any living person to follow in the account of Laz and the rich man

Unless you can explain what the moral or spiritual lesson is.

OK. I guess you haven't bothered reading the account then. This isn't even close to anything that Jesus spoke about.

He spoke about 2 real human beings who died. One was saved and went to Paradise, which He called Abraham's Bosom, and the unsaved rich man went to the same Hades but another compartment called torments. And the rich man (though dead physically) had a conversation with another real man, also dead, Abraham, who conversed back to the rich man.

Jesus gave us a glimple of the afterlife in the OT. But of course you will protest because of your unbiblical view about soul sleep.
Fact is the Bible is a Spiritual book.
That may be a "fact" to you, but in reality it is just a rumor.

For you have a physical poor Christian at the gate of a unsaved Pharisee's home desiring the rich man's crumbs...............and you just leave at that

Doesn't fit the narrative of the Bible.
What doesn't "fit"? Jesus was giving us a glimpse of the afterlife for the saved and unsaved after death in the OT and obviously prior to the resurrection of the saved and of the unsaved. Each will participate in a single resurrection. They are 1,000 years apart.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus took the sin penalty of mankind. He took God's justice poured out on Him rather than on mankind.

Sorry you didn't know that.
Sin penalty was surely not the cross. Mind you 2 other men were crucified.
Seriously? Jesus was condemned under Roman rule, so the other 2 were simply being executed for their crimes. However, we know that Jesus WAS bearing all the sins of mankind because of what He said on the cross: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

Know that Jesus perfectly understood WHY He was on the cross, and His prayer in the garden proves that. He asked the question as a "teaching moment" for US, to understand why He was on the cross.

Keep in mind that the Triune God (Father, Son, Spirit) had been in perfect harmony/fellowhip from eternity past. This was a huge break in that, when the Father and Spirit HAD TO turn their backs on the Son, as He was paying for all of our sins.

God cannot fellowship with sin. Period. So when the Father judged the Son for our sins, THAT was spiritual death for Jesus. Total separation from the Father.

That is why Jesus was able to say "it is finished" BEFORE He died physically. His physical death was simply His exit from this planet.

The death that He died on the cross was spiritual and paid for the sins of mankind.
 
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Genesis 2
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God told me souls die....not the devil.
God hasn't told anyone that LIE.

I guess you aren't able to discern between spiritual and physical death.

As well, you seem unaware of what was meant by "Let Us make man in OUR image". Triune God was referring to 3 parts, just like the Trinity. So they made man with body, soul, and human spirit. That's 3 parts. On THAT day when Adam/woman ate of the forbidden fruit, their human spirits died, separating them from God. Not their souls.

Heb 4:12 clearly teaches that the soul and spirit can be divided. They are not the same, but related.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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No it's definitely not a parable. I proved it wasn't.

Actually, I have proved the Rich Man and Lazarus is a Parable or the Bible stands in contradiction of itself. I.e., there is no mention of a place of torment in Moses or the Prophets for the rich man and his family to have been aware of.
The contradiction is all on your side.

Paul's entire gospel message was from "Moses and the prophets". That would be the OT, obviously. And his preaching included Jesus as Messiah, which WAS prophesied in the OT and that salvation (from the LOF) was also in the OT. \

Otherwise, there would be nothing to be saved from.

Since the Bible is error free, it's definitely a parable. You shouldn't be promoting otherwise.
Yes, and your opinions are full of errors, as has been proven. But since your eyes/ears are tightly closed, you are just not seeing it.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I’m just clarifying that Abraham is the rich man’s father. Either spiritual father, seed of Abraham, or both.

Luke 16
24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Abraham called the rich man son.

Can you explain why Abraham confirmed the rich man in torment is still his son regardless of his situation?
Simple. Abraham was a Jew, and the rich man was Jew. That's how fellow Jews regarded each other.

There was no spiritual meaning in "son". Just there isn't in the parable of the idiot prodigal SON.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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On one hand I fail to see why I should dignify your false witness with a response, on the other hand now I need to defend the integrity of Jesus from scoffers like you. I can’t accept that people will possibly believe Jesus is a liar because you lied and said I stated I believe Jesus is a liar.

Got a problem? Quote the comment I ever claimed such a thing and report it if you find it. If you have nothing to prove the false claims with then I assure you that YOU are the problem here.
Like I already stated, if this is a parable then Jesus wrongfully quoted Abraham. That would make Jesus deceptive and dishonest. I deem the story to be a factual, historical event thereby dignifying Jesus’ words to be truthful, not deceptive or dishonest, hence I am not calling, nor would I ever call Jesus, a liar.