"The rich man And Lazarus..."

[Saul-to-Paul]

All the dead both righteous and wicked are in hades/sheol/hell/the grave. It's consistent throughout the bible. The word hell/hades doesn't mean a fiery place of torment.

The Bible disagrees with you sir.
Luke 16:23
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

1. The unsaved will not be crying, "Have mercy on me" in hell.
2. The Bible defines it's own words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because one can apply many interpretations to the scripture.

In Eschatology there maybe more than ten interpretations.

Pre-Tribulation Pre-Millennial
Pre-Tribulation Post-Millennial
Mid-Tribulation
Post-Tribulation
Pre-Wrath
Amillennial
Preterism
Partial Preterism
.
.
etc.

Do you think the Bible contradicts itself. While there can be "maybe more then ren interpretations" does that mean all of them are right?

No. There is only 1 meaning for every verse.

Interpretations are like opinions. Everyone has one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And what was happening with Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. What was the cup Jesus was asking his Father to pass away?

Yes, He was under great stress. But to call that "hell" is beyond the pale. He was teaching that though He didn't want to go through with it, He WAS subservient to His Father's will. Totally.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The rich man was tormented IN A FLAME! Not because he saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.

So what? I never said anything about seeing Lazarus with Abraham.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The rich man was in hellfire.

Hades fire, literally. And after his resurrection with all the unsaved, he will face the GWT judgment and then be cast into the LOF.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Fact is the dead go into silence and this man is speaking from the dead (the consensus), whether you believe he's in Hades or hell.

Why do you insist on disagreeing with Jesus?

This is a clear contradiction.

The contradiction is in your head.

 

[FreeGrace2]

PeacefulWarrior said:
If you believe as Plato and the Greeks that a soul is inherently immortal and continues to exist outside of the body, then when you read passages such as this, you will interpret that these are real people.

That is just nonsense.

The Bible revealed the imperishability of the soul LONG BEFORE Plato and Aristotle. Plato lived around 350 BC but Abraham lived around 2000 BC. So you are already off base. There would be no point delving further into your errors. So here is the truth:

Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8).

If the soul was not imperishable, this could not have been said. So where did Abraham go? Or more precisely where did the soul and spirit of Abraham go? In the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, WE ARE TOLD PRECISELY that Abraham was in Hades, with the righteous dead. And that he actually spoke to the Rich Man. Since those are the words of Christ, anyone claiming that this is not an actual historical narrative is making Christ a liar.

Immediately after the resurrection of Christ, Jesus took (from Hades in the heart of the earth) all the OT saints (including Abraham) to the New Jerusalem in Heaven. And we know that God had shown a vision of the New Jerusalem to Abraham while he was alive, since the Bible says that Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God.

Further, Jesus told the believing thief on the cross that he would be WITH Jesus that day in Paradise! Which is where Abraham was.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Why do you insist on disagreeing with Jesus?


The contradiction is in your head.

Can the dead speak from the grave? Yes or No
Was the rich man dead? Yes or No
Did the rich man speak from the dead? Yes or No

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you insist on disagreeing with Jesus?

The contradiction is in your head.

Can the dead speak from the grave? Yes or No

Kind of a silly question, really. Of course "the dead" don't speak from the grave. What's IN the grave? Their DEAD body. And DEAD bodies don't move, speak or breathe.

But you seem to have the idea that the soul dies as well. Which is unbiblical. Jesus told a thief that he would be WITH Jesus IN Paradise that same day. Were they silent in Paradise? No. Jesus gave an account of real people who died and went to Hades. The unsaved rich man spoke with Abraham and Abraham answered him.

So, do the dead speak? YES. But not from the grave. From where their souls are. Since the resurrection of Jesus, the souls of all saved people who have died are in heaven and they DO speak. Rev 6:9 prove it.

Was the rich man dead? Yes or No

Yes. And his body was in a grave but his conscious soul was in Hades in torments. And he spoke.

Did the rich man speak from the dead? Yes or No

Your "logic" is really fuzzy. No, he didn't speak from the grave. He DID, however, speak in Hades in torments.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Yes, He was under great stress. But to call that "hell" is beyond the pale. He was teaching that though He didn't want to go through with it, He WAS subservient to His Father's will. Totally.

Again, what was the cup that Jesus aske to be passed away. It's ok to say I don't know.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you insist on disagreeing with Jesus?

The contradiction is in your head.

Kind of a silly question, really. Of course "the dead" don't speak from the grave. What's IN the grave? Their DEAD body. And DEAD bodies don't move, speak or breathe.

But you seem to have the idea that the soul dies as well. Which is unbiblical. Jesus told a thief that he would be WITH Jesus IN Paradise that same day. Were they silent in Paradise? No. Jesus gave an account of real people who died and went to Hades. The unsaved rich man spoke with Abraham and Abraham answered him.

So, do the dead speak? YES. But not from the grave. From where their souls are. Since the resurrection of Jesus, the souls of all saved people who have died are in heaven and they DO speak. Rev 6:9 prove it.


Yes. And his body was in a grave but his conscious soul was in Hades in torments. And he spoke.


Your "logic" is really fuzzy. No, he didn't speak from the grave. He DID, however, speak in Hades in torments.

Thank you!
Because we are to compare Spiritual with spiritual. Is there another verse from the Bible where a unsaved dead man's soul is speaking from Hades?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, He was under great stress. But to call that "hell" is beyond the pale. He was teaching that though He didn't want to go through with it, He WAS subservient to His Father's will. Totally.

Again, what was the cup that Jesus aske to be passed away. It's ok to say I don't know.

It's not ok since I know the answer.

The "cup" was going to the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

I suppose you have a different answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you!
Because we are to compare Spiritual with spiritual. Is there another verse from the Bible where a unsaved dead man's soul is speaking from Hades?

OK, how many verses do you demand before you simply believe that people who have died still speak.? Just not from their graves, where their lifeless bodies lie still.

For me, 1 is plenty enough.

Any verse that makes a point is truth. I don't need a bevy of verses before I will believe that point.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, He was under great stress. But to call that "hell" is beyond the pale. He was teaching that though He didn't want to go through with it, He WAS subservient to His Father's will. Totally.

It's not ok since I know the answer.

The "cup" was going to the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

I suppose you have a different answer.

Bible verse please.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

OK, how many verses do you demand before you simply believe that people who have died still speak.? Just not from their graves, where their lifeless bodies lie still.

For me, 1 is plenty enough.

Any verse that makes a point is truth. I don't need a bevy of verses before I will believe that point.

I'm just confused. The Bible is crystal clear that the souls of unsaved men are spiritually dead.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Now you have unsaved dead men souls talking.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bible verse please.

You mean you really aren't aware of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane?? Why not?

You can read it for yourself. It's in the gospel accounts. Good grief, man. btw, the gospels are in the NT. The beginning of the NT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm just confused. The Bible is crystal clear that the souls of unsaved men are spiritually dead.

Yes, very confused. Verse, please.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Now you have unsaved dead men souls talking.

No, the Bible has souls of unsaved dead men talking. But you have chosen to reject what Jesus said about it.

So I can't help you anymore. Since you don't believe what Jesus said. You have been given all the evidence that they can and do speak in the afterlife, you have no excuse any more.

btw, to be spiritually dead is the condition of ALL living people who haven't yet believed in the Lord Jesus for salvation.

That doesn't mean they can't function. Every unbeliever you know is quite alive physically. They think, they act, etc.

So, please get your facts straight.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Yes, very confused. Verse, please.


No, the Bible has souls of unsaved dead men talking. But you have chosen to reject what Jesus said about it.

So I can't help you anymore. Since you don't believe what Jesus said. You have been given all the evidence that they can and do speak in the afterlife, you have no excuse any more.

btw, to be spiritually dead is the condition of ALL living people who haven't yet believed in the Lord Jesus for salvation.

That doesn't mean they can't function. Every unbeliever you know is quite alive physically. They think, they act, etc.

So, please get your facts straight.

Who told you dead souls can function? Let me guess, Jesus. 🤣

 

[PennEd]

btw, to be spiritually dead is the condition of ALL living people who haven't yet believed in the Lord Jesus for salvation.

Excellent point.

S2P would have us believe that the unsaved amongst us can't speak!

BTW. They don't want any part of the account of Samuel appearing to Saul AFTER his death.

 

[posthuman]

Did you actually read all that I wrote in pervious posts or just that last post? If not please go back and read them. I don't want to repeat previous posts. This is another cherry picked verse without an OT foundation.

Mark 12:20-27, the question is regarding marriage and husband & wives in the kingdom; it's not a theological explanation to whether not people are "living in heaven".

On top of that, the question is being ask regarding the resurrection, not ghost ascension.
The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection. I'm sorry, but you are striping it from context. Jesus is saying that the Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection are wrong and that God is the God if living not the dead, that is, there is a resurrection of the dead and we will be alive again and He will be our God.


18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.
20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife.”
24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore [a]mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

If you say that the fathers are all in "heaven" then please explain why it says the only person who went to heaven is He who came down from heaven, that is the Son. Which would exclude every person who has ever lived.

John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [a]who is in heaven.

Please also explain why it say David didn't ascend to heaven and is buried in his tomb:

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

The point the sadducees are trying to make is that they consider it ridiculous a person goes on existing after their spirit has left their body. Jesus replies that they ought to realize Abraham and Isaac and Jacob **presently live** because He calls Himself their God **presently**

Why doesn't He say He is the God of those who will one day live?
He says He is the God of the **living**

How carefully does God choose His words?

 

[Runningman]

Sorry if this is a long post, but hopefully it will settle the dispute once and for all. First is foundational knowledge then quotes from ECF/reformers, followed by the Rich man and Lazarus Parable; one builds on top of the other. Talking about the Rich man parable without foundational knowledge is like trying to do calculus before you know what numbers are or how to add and substract.

I spent a considerable amount of time compiling this (some of my own and some from others), so hopefully it is read and helps others as it has helped me through my "pulling of weeds" of bad theology that has been handed down from generation to generation for centuries without skepticism or being challenge.

Yes, I'm aware that there are NT verses that "appear" to support immortality of the soul which people use, the rich man being one of them. But since this post is about the rich man parable, I'm not addressing the other commonly used verses, all of which can be explained with a Jewish/Biblical lens.

If you have red glasses on you will see everything red, if blue, then everything will appear blue. The person with red will use verses to support what they believe and the ones with blue will do the same, and neither will understand how the other person sees it differently because they are starting from two different positions or "glasses". You can only understand one another when you take off your glasses and put on theirs.

If you have the incorrect set of glasses, then when you read the bible you can easily misinterpret what is being said based upon your presuppositions or glasses, to no fault of your own, you just don't know any different (as we all make mistakes).

In many cases of dispute within Christianity (including this one), if you come to the scriptures with Platonic/Greek glasses, then when you read the bible you will have a Greek application to scriptures instead of a Jewish/Biblical view. If you don't understand the radical difference between a Jewish worldview and and Greek world view and the philosophies of men that the apostles had to combat when they went to preach the Gospel to a Greek saturated Gentile world, then you will never understand the bible correctly.

If you believe as Plato and the Greeks that a soul is inherently immortal and continues to exist outside of the body, then when you read passages such as this, you will interpret that these are real people. If however, you create your foundation (definition of words/terminology and theology) in the OT first through a Jewish set of glasses, before jumping into the NT, then you would understand that the dead are dead, without consciousness, and remain "asleep" until either the first resurrection (believers, Rev 20 or the second resurrection unbelievers, judgement day), and you would interpret this parable, as a parable that has meaning to the audience who are saturated in the OT scriptures'.

Foundational knowledge:

No conscious after death:
What is a soul:
The question is, do we have/possess a soul as Plato and the Greeks taught (body and soul are separate, soul dwells in body and leaves after death) or are we a soul (body+breath of life=soul). It's better to think about what Plato taught that a "soul" is actually a ghost which leaves the body because the definition (as being explained) of a soul according to the bible is different than what Plato and the Greeks taught.

You don't have a soul, you are a soul. Humans are souls and animals are souls. Without the breath of life you cease to exist. Without blood running in your body, you cease to exist, this is defined in Genesis 1:20-2:19, 9:3-16.

The word is neh'-fesh (H5315) it is translated inconsistently in the KJV as: life, creature, thing, being, persons, soul, mind, lives, man, heart, one, dead, body, beast, themselves, they, breath.

Your assessment is confirmed by some of the comments here. People who want to see the Bible a certain way are going to do it. If people just refuse to accept the rich man and Lazarus story is a parable then they must face some serious questions they are unable to provide sound answers for. Rather than view this story from a parable perspective, most will dig their heels in and attack others who disagree.

Welcome to CC by the way.