Once saved always saved?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Unfortunately, you still misunderstand Scripture. What you believe is a "works salvation" system, even if you don't recognize that.

Actually, what I believe is a "Works for Rewards" system, even if you classify it differently.

I don't recognize that. Your posts clearly imply that works are required for salvation. Maybe you should proofread your posts before you post, to make sure you are being clear.

I DO believe that rewards are earned by works.

I believe the following equation:

Salvation = Justification + Sanctification + Perseverance.

You just shot yourself in the foot by adding perseverance. That is an effort on our part. So you DO believe in salvation by works, whether you realize that or not.

You should have just stayed with "salvation = justification". And you would have been accurate.

The Bible speaks of 2 different types of sanctification. One is being "declared righteous" on the basis of faith in Christ. The other is spiritual growth, which involves human effort.

That's a non sequitur. Jesus didn't say everyone who once receives eternal life, i.e. justification will never lose it.

Do you need help understanding John 10:28? He sure did say that. He said, "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish". It couldn't be any more clear, but apparently you aren't understanding His simple words.

Rather, Jesus said a particular group of people will both be given eternal life and never perish, i.e. justification and perseverance.

So you get that from John 10:28? You are now just "seeing things". Things that AREN'T there.

If you're given the gift to board a flight, you are on the Path to Salvation.

I don't need a very unbiblical and flawed example. I will believe what Jesus said. You have a real problem if you can't understand John 10:28.

Hebrews 10 alone is sufficient to refute that claim.

What a ridiculous claim! No verse or chapter contradicts Jesus.

Here are 3 Proofs from that Single Chapter against your claim.

1. "28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Those who rejected Moses' law suffered the ultimate temporal punishment of worldly death.

And that is ALL these verses are saying. God's divine discipline including physical death.

This verse says those who apostatize from Christ, after being sanctified by the Blood of the Covenat will suffer worse: that is, eternal punishment.

You are just making up stuff that is NOT in the Bible.

2. "Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

Again, the Lord has no pleasure in those who draw back. Why? Because: "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ez 33:11). What follows from this? That those who draw back suffer "the death of the wicked" which means they are lost.

You method of "pick and choose" to cobble together your theory fails. The verse DOESN'T say what you want it so say so you just make up stuff.

3. "39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Those who draw back, or apostatize from Christ, do so unto perdition. Therefore, those who do this are not saved anymore.

totally misunderstanding of the verse.

Even those who believe in Calvinist OSAS don't say apostates are still saved.

Then they are just as confused as you are.

Your theory says they are. Heb 10 disagrees.

God Bless.

Everyone who has been given eternal life, which is WHEN a person believes in Christ, shall never perish.

That is exactly what John 10:28 SAYS in plain language.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Those who will believe in him" Who is it that can believe in a spiritual God?

What does your confused question have to do with the quoted phrase?

It is not the unregenerate person, because he cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14)

Oh, please. Believing the gospel is a trust issue, not even a spiritual issue. God promises salvation to "whosoever" believes in His Son.

That isn't hard to figure out or believe. The issue is whether the person believes the promise. Or trusts what God says. It is that simple.

Before the unregenerate person can believe in the things of the Spirit, they have to be quickened to the new spiritual person (Eph 2:1-5)

In v.5, Paul equated being made alive (regeneration) with salvation. Then, in v.8 Paul notes that we are saved 'through faith', proving that faith precedes salvation and regeneration.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me

You say "it is those who will believe". "Those he has given me" is in past tense. It does not say "those he will give me".

So what is your point? Haven't you read Eph 1:4? God chose believers BEFORE the foundation of the world. iow, God has always known who will believe on His Son. Of course it would be aorist tense.

If Jesus died only for those that will believe in him, then he did not die for all mankind, as you claim.

As I claim??? No, the Bible says so in plain language. You just choose not to believe the Bible.

If you come back with the statement that He died for all mankind, to give them a chance to accept his offering, then you do not have scripture to back that statement up.

Of course I do. Like the Bereans, I search the Scriptures daily to see if what FGC says it true. And I have found verses that refute your limited atonement clearly.

2 Cor 5:14,15,19
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

From v.14, we know that everyone is dead spiritually and needs to be regenerated, or born again. So OBVIOUSLY, the verses mean the whole human race by "all".

 

[Cameron143]

FreeGrace2 said:
Unfortunately, you still misunderstand Scripture. What you believe is a "works salvation" system, even if you don't recognize that.

I don't recognize that. Your posts clearly imply that works are required for salvation. Maybe you should proofread your posts before you post, to make sure you are being clear.

I DO believe that rewards are earned by works.


You just shot yourself in the foot by adding perseverance. That is an effort on our part. So you DO believe in salvation by works, whether you realize that or not.

You should have just stayed with "salvation = justification". And you would have been accurate.

The Bible speaks of 2 different types of sanctification. One is being "declared righteous" on the basis of faith in Christ. The other is spiritual growth, which involves human effort.


Do you need help understanding John 10:28? He sure did say that. He said, "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish". It couldn't be any more clear, but apparently you aren't understanding His simple words.


So you get that from John 10:28? You are now just "seeing things". Things that AREN'T there.


I don't need a very unbiblical and flawed example. I will believe what Jesus said. You have a real problem if you can't understand John 10:28.


What a ridiculous claim! No verse or chapter contradicts Jesus.


And that is ALL these verses are saying. God's divine discipline including physical death.


You are just making up stuff that is NOT in the Bible.


You method of "pick and choose" to cobble together your theory fails. The verse DOESN'T say what you want it so say so you just make up stuff.


totally misunderstanding of the verse.


Then they are just as confused as you are.


Everyone who has been given eternal life, which is WHEN a person believes in Christ, shall never perish.

That is exactly what John 10:28 SAYS in plain language.

You did a nice job going point by point and giving scriptural references. It's an excellent answer for the hope that lies within you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
First, He had to pay the sin penalty for everyone, so that "whosoever" believes in Him will not perish.

If Christ paid the sin penalty for everyone, then everyone can commit no sin that has not been paid for.

Correct. Why do you believe that people will go to the LOF for their sins?

No one will go to the LOF for sin. In fact, the basis of judgment at the GWT judgment is their works. Why? Jesus taught that it will be MORE tolerable for some than others. iow, human good will result in the LOF being "more tolerable" than an evil lifestyle will.

Read Rev 20:11-15 and tell me WHY people will be cast into the LOF. The language is clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So, a person will be saved IF they put their full trust alone in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, for their sins personally for their salvati

So, are you saying that a person's actions is what saves them eternally, instead of God's sovereign grace?

What you need to know is that trusting in God's promise isn't a work. It's the basis of faith, believing. Trust is the issue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You did a nice job going point by point and giving scriptural references. It's an excellent answer for the hope that lies within you.

Thank you very much. I learned how to study the Bible from the Bereans in Acts 17:11. I apply their technique to those who make claims but can't or don't include verses that say what they claim. Works every time.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Book - chapter please.

Matthew 6:
14 For if you forgive men their offenses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;

15 but if you for give not men, neither will your Father forgive your offenses.

 

[gb9]

Matthew 6:
14 For if you forgive men their offenses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;

15 but if you for give not men, neither will your Father forgive your offenses.

and that goes the same as do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Looks like the Arch Deceiver is playing mind games with you. FAITH = BELIEF = TRUST. It is really that simple.

Maybe he is. However "simple" the truth of the words and their
implications may be, if the truth of them it not properly transmitted and received, it can lead to dangerous ends.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

I don’t agree with it because nobody knows how God will judge us all. Only God knows that.
Here’s more discussion here where another member created a topic based on this topic:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/calvinists-others.207502/

Whether or not your first point is true, isn't it important we understand what is required of us to be saved and think and act accordingly? Our eternity may depend on it.

 

[Eli1]

Whether or not your first point is true, isn't it important we understand what is required of us to be saved and think and act accordingly? Our eternity may depend on it.

It’s important in the sense that we must follow the life and teachings of Christ. That’s important.
But basing your whole faith on technicalities, is not important at all.

Wether you’re baptized in water, and submersed a certain depth or weather you claim with a certain audible that “you belive” is not important at all. These could be outward expressions of the love for God, but should not be gateways to Heaven.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

It’s important in the sense that we must follow the life and teachings of Christ. That’s important.
But basing your whole faith on technicalities, is not important at all.

Wether you’re baptized in water, and submersed a certain depth or weather you claim with a certain audible that “you belive” is not important at all. These could be outward expressions of the love for God, but should not be gateways to Heaven.

"Basing your whole life on technicalities" - that seems dismissive! It seems you don't believe there's a danger in potentially being wrong.

 

[Eli1]

"Basing your whole life on technicalities" - that seems dismissive! It seems you don't believe there's a danger in potentially being wrong.

Approaching others with “I’m right and you’re wrong” is one way to push others away because the Bible is not an Engineering book, but a relationship/spiritual book to our Creator.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

It’s important in the sense that we must follow the life and teachings of Christ. That’s important.
But basing your whole faith on technicalities, is not important at all.

Wether you’re baptized in water, and submersed a certain depth or weather you claim with a certain audible that “you belive” is not important at all. These could be outward expressions of the love for God, but should not be gateways to Heaven.

I've glanced through the link you posted and maybe I can revisit it later. One thing I noticed was the reference to Calvinism. Maybe you've made the issue clear and I haven't noticed, but could you answer - are you a Calvinist? It's a concept I've come across, which seems counter-intuitive, but I tend to wonder if there's a truth in there that I've not yet seen.
I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts on this that you'd like to share, 'though I don't want to commit you to any inconvenience.

 

[Eli1]

I've glanced through the link you posted and maybe I can revisit it later. One thing I noticed was the reference to Calvinism. Maybe you've made the issue clear and I haven't noticed, but could you answer - are you a Calvinist? It's a concept I've come across, which seems counter-intuitive, but I tend to wonder if there's a truth in there that I've not yet seen.
I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts on this that you'd like to share, 'though I don't want to commit you to any inconvenience.

No, i am not a Calvinist. I go to different Churches. Mainly East Orthodox ones, but sometimes Catholic Ones too.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Approaching others with “I’m right and you’re wrong” is one way to push others away because the Bible is not an Engineering book, but a relationship/spiritual book to our Creator.

Although tact is appropriate when evangelising, correct teaching is very important.

 

[Eli1]

Although tact is appropriate when evangelising, correct teaching is very important.

In my teachings we were taught to approach the discussion with commonalities and the uniting figure is always Jesus.
We don’t start with “If you’re not baptized you’re going to Hell”.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

No, i am not a Calvinist. I go to different Churches. Mainly East Orthodox ones, but sometimes Catholic Ones too.

Thanks for replying.
I don't know if you've come across and/ or considered their beliefs. I've seen a few debates with James White.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

In my teachings we were taught to approach the discussion with commonalities and the uniting figure is always Jesus.
We don’t start with “If you’re not baptized you’re going to Hell”.

I certainly don't believe the style of the Westboro Baptist Church is effective in gathering adherents.