Once saved always saved?

[1ambassador]

i hate to even go here, but if i leave God for Satan and Witchcraft, and you believe i have Eternal Security when i purposefully CHOSE to be on the OTHER TEAM and DIE, you are Delusional!

Agree! One MUST be "born again" (not just believe about a god. It is a relationship, and not just a belief. Then one is "sealed" as a "Child of God" forever ---and cannot lose salvation (even if being "carnal" (worldly) ---though carnal saints will suffer loss of rewards thus in Heaven, as Revelation shows. The fundamental need is to be "born again" as shown in John3; John 14; John 17; Romans 8; Galations 3; 1 Jn.5: 10-12; etc.
One should take "all the counsel of God"; "rightly dividing the Word of Truth", as our Creator-God tells us.

 

[1ambassador]

i hate to even go here, but if i leave God for Satan and Witchcraft, and you believe i have Eternal Security when i purposefully CHOSE to be on the OTHER TEAM and DIE, you are Delusional!

Agree! One MUST be "born again" (not just believe about a god. It is a RELATIONSHIP, and not just a belief. Then one is "sealed" as a "Child of God" forever ---and cannot lose salvation (even if being "carnal" (worldly) ---though carnal saints will suffer loss of rewards thus in Heaven, as Revelation shows. The fundamental need is to be "born again" as shown in John3; John 14; John 17; Romans 8; Galations 3; 1 Jn.5: 10-12; etc.
One should take "all the counsel of God"; "rightly dividing the Word of Truth", as our Creator-God tells us. Religious thougts is NOT salvation.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Unfortunately, you still misunderstand Scripture. What you believe is a "works salvation" system, even if you don't recognize that.

Actually, what I believe is a "Works for Rewards" system, even if you classify it differently. I believe the following equation:

Salvation = Justification + Sanctification + Perseverance. Justification and Perseverance are purely gracious/unmerited/monergistic. Therefore, Salvation as a whole is a Purely Gracious unearned or unmerited gift.

Sanctification, which happens after Justificaiton, is Synergistic, and Earns Merits/Rewards in Heaven, the Heavenly Treasures the Lord told us to store. This is merited. Salvation as a whole is not, but neither is it given instantaneously.

At the very MOMENT of saving faith (believing in Jesus for salvation), the believer possesses eternal life. John 5:24.

Yes, he passes from the state of death (original or deadly sin) to the state of grace or supernatural life. Then, if he "sins unto death" (1 Jn 5:16), he loses that state of grace or life and returns to the state of death. If he confesses and repents, he can return to life - this is what David the King did btw when, after being justified in his youth, he later sinned by adultery.

And Jesus said He is the One who gives eternal life and the result is that they shall never perish. John 10:28

That's a non sequitur. Jesus didn't say everyone who once receives eternal life, i.e. justification will never lose it. Rather, Jesus said a particular group of people will both be given eternal life and never perish, i.e. justification and perseverance.

If you're given the gift to board a flight, you are on the Path to Salvation. If you safely remain in that flight till death, you will be saved. If on the other hand, you deliberately eject yourself from that flight, which you are free to do, you'll be lost.

Your views do not line up with what Jesus taught. All the verses you have quoted do NOT say or even suggest that salvation can be lost. Or that there is more to salvation than simply believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Hebrews 10 alone is sufficient to refute that claim. Here are 3 Proofs from that Single Chapter against your claim.

1. "28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Those who rejected Moses' law suffered the ultimate temporal punishment of worldly death. This verse says those who apostatize from Christ, after being sanctified by the Blood of the Covenat will suffer worse: that is, eternal punishment.

2. "Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

Again, the Lord has no pleasure in those who draw back. Why? Because: "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ez 33:11). What follows from this? That those who draw back suffer "the death of the wicked" which means they are lost.

3. "39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Those who draw back, or apostatize from Christ, do so unto perdition. Therefore, those who do this are not saved anymore.

Even those who believe in Calvinist OSAS don't say apostates are still saved. Your theory says they are. Heb 10 disagrees.

God Bless.

 

[phil36]

Actually, what I believe is a "Works for Rewards" system, even if you classify it differently. I believe the following equation:

Salvation = Justification + Sanctification + Perseverance. Justification and Perseverance are purely gracious/unmerited/monergistic. Therefore, Salvation as a whole is a Purely Gracious unearned or unmerited gift.

Sanctification, which happens after Justificaiton, is Synergistic, and Earns Merits/Rewards in Heaven, the Heavenly Treasures the Lord told us to store. This is merited. Salvation as a whole is not, but neither is it given instantaneously.



Yes, he passes from the state of death (original or deadly sin) to the state of grace or supernatural life. Then, if he "sins unto death" (1 Jn 5:16), he loses that state of grace or life and returns to the state of death. If he confesses and repents, he can return to life - this is what David the King did btw when, after being justified in his youth, he later sinned by adultery.



That's a non sequitur. Jesus didn't say everyone who once receives eternal life, i.e. justification will never lose it. Rather, Jesus said a particular group of people will both be given eternal life and never perish, i.e. justification and perseverance.

If you're given the gift to board a flight, you are on the Path to Salvation. If you safely remain in that flight till death, you will be saved. If on the other hand, you deliberately eject yourself from that flight, which you are free to do, you'll be lost.



Hebrews 10 alone is sufficient to refute that claim. Here are 3 Proofs from that Single Chapter against your claim.

1. "28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Those who rejected Moses' law suffered the ultimate temporal punishment of worldly death. This verse says those who apostatize from Christ, after being sanctified by the Blood of the Covenat will suffer worse: that is, eternal punishment.

2. "Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

Again, the Lord has no pleasure in those who draw back. Why? Because: "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ez 33:11). What follows from this? That those who draw back suffer "the death of the wicked" which means they are lost.

3. "39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Those who draw back, or apostatize from Christ, do so unto perdition. Therefore, those who do this are not saved anymore.

Even those who believe in Calvinist OSAS don't say apostates are still saved. Your theory says they are. Heb 10 disagrees.

God Bless.

Hi xavier,

How does the treasury of merit (treasury of the church) , fit into all of what you are saying. How do you make use of those bonus mrits of other saints, like Mary's good works, how does her good works help the merits of others?

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Cutting off our arm or plucking out an eye is a metaphor whereby Jesus is telling us to put away old beliefs and placing our faith in Him.

Question: How long have you been saving yourself? I ask because obviously you don’t believe Jesus can do it by Himself

Hi Snacks. If that were so, Jesus would have said "mouth" or "heart", because as Apostle Paul says in Romans 10: "10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Rom 10:10)

But instead He said "hands" and "feet". Why? Because our hands, by theft etc, can lead us to hell, or our eyes, by greed or lust, can do so likewise. As Paul also wrote in 1 Corinthians 6: "9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men a 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:9-11). Hence, Christians must overcome that list of sins mentioned.

The Lord Jesus gave 7 Promises in the Book of Revelation to those who overcome by surrendering to His Grace. To quote 2:

Rev 2:10: 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2:26: "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"

Since Paul says "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me" we also can and should overcome by His Grace.

I surrendered my life to Christ in 2012, accepting Him as my Lord and Savior, and repenting of my sins. I've been walking with Him ever since, striving to grow in His Grace. I believe I am justified and I hope, by the Grace of God, to persevere to the end and be saved, for the Lord said: "the one who perseveres to the end will be saved"

God Bless.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Hi Phil. Just saw your post. Will get back to you subsequently. God Bless.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So Verse 14 is a lie?

Book - chapter please.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

So this means that you have an absolute accurate understanding of salvation then?

??
Don't know what to make of that.
In any case - Would you agree or disagree with my "dangerous" point?

 

[AndrewMorgan]

OK, you were just trying to convey what other posters seem to think then?


Satan has been having a real field day deceiving and confusing believers. That is Satan's mission; to confuse people so that they do not know how to be saved.

The Bible mentions "faith" a lot. And we have the phrase "saving faith". So, what is it, exactly? That certainly is the question.

How can anyone share their faith in the hope of leading someone to "saving faith" if they don't even know how to be saved?

Recall the jailer's question to Paul: "what MUST I DO to be saved?" Real clear question.

Paul's answer: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE saved".

So, the only question left is what Paul meant by his answer.

The Greek word for "believe" means to trust. Have full confidence in. And that's all it means. Lots of preachers, etc add things like commitment, etc, all of which adds up to human effort, which is unbiblical.

So, what are we trusting Jesus Christ FOR? Obviously, our salvation. We trust Him to save us from the LOF. How does Jesus save us? First, He had to pay the sin penalty for everyone, so that "whosoever" believes in Him will not perish.

Last question: who is the Lord Jesus Christ, specifically? Just some itinerant teacher?

Let's break down the 3 words that describe what Paul meant.

Lord - full Deity. He is the Son of God, no less.
Jesus - full humanity. He was born in the line of David.
Christ - the Annointed One, or Savior.

So, a person will be saved IF they put their full trust alone in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, for their sins personally for their salvation.

Re. your first line -
I was trying to gain overall clarity on the topic by addressing the stance taken by the poster I was addressing.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ForestGreenCook said:
All of those that God gave to Jesus to die for on the cross will go to eternal heaven, (John 6:39).
FreeGrace2 said:
But the verse doesn't say or teach that.

First, there are many verses that say plainly that Christ died for all or everyone. So this cannot be about limited atonement.

Now, let's look at that verse:

John 6:39 - 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

See? It doesn't even address who He died for. It's about those God has given Him. And that would be those who will believe in Him.

And He was teaching eternal security, same as John 10:28.

Your turn.

"Those who will believe in him" Who is it that can believe in a spiritual God? It is not the unregenerate person, because he cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14) Before the unregenerate person can believe in the things of the Spirit, they have to be quickened to the new spiritual person (Eph 2:1-5)

The regenerated person is known as his sheep, and are also known as his elect. They are the only ones that can believe in the things of the Spirit, and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit given unto them when they were quickened.

John 10:25-26, I told ye, and ye believed not; the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me

You say "it is those who will believe". "Those he has given me" is in past tense. It does not say "those he will give me".

If Jesus died only for those that will believe in him, then he did not die for all mankind, as you claim. If you come back with the statement that He died for all mankind, to give them a chance to accept his offering, then you do not have scripture to back that statement up.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Re. your first line -
I was trying to gain overall clarity on the topic by addressing the stance taken by the poster I was addressing.

I think there's a great possibility of confusion in words like faith, believe, especially in this biblical context. I used to believe "faith" was synonymous with "belief". Now I'm far from sure.
"Believing in/ on Jesus" is open to misinterpretation, as I've pointed out.
Got to go again. I'll speak to you again.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I used to believe "faith" was synonymous with "belief". Now I'm far from sure.

Looks like the Arch Deceiver is playing mind games with you. FAITH = BELIEF = TRUST. It is really that simple.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

First, He had to pay the sin penalty for everyone, so that "whosoever" believes in Him will not perish.

If Christ paid the sin penalty for everyone, then everyone can commit no sin that has not been paid for.

 

[Eli1]

??
Don't know what to make of that.
In any case - Would you agree or disagree with my "dangerous" point?

I don’t agree with it because nobody knows how God will judge us all. Only God knows that.
Here’s more discussion here where another member created a topic based on this topic:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/calvinists-others.207502/

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So, a person will be saved IF they put their full trust alone in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, for their sins personally for their salvati

So, are you saying that a person's actions is what saves them eternally, instead of God's sovereign grace?

 

[FreeGrace2]

These "once saved always saved" nuts seemed to be forgetting our origin story.

The real nuts are those who deny the truth that Jesus taught plainly.

That is Genesis 1-3. We were created in the image and likeness of God. At creation, God deemed us very good. However, ONE act of sin caused us to be unceremoniously thrown out of the Garden of Eden and almost permanently ruptured our relationship with God.

And God's plan for salvation was promised in Gen 3:15. For those who read the Bible.

If man had maintained this original status quo, we would have enjoyed continued fellowship/visitation with God. He would have taught us his character and his heavenly culture.

Apparently you didn't think your "theory" out very far. Did you miss that children weren't born until AFTER they sinned? iow, if the "original status quo" had been maintained, there would NOT have been any children. So your theory is deflated.

 

[FreeGrace2]

'You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.' James 2:24-26

James wasn't even dealing with salvation. He was dealing with the problem of believers who don't bear fruit. Their faith cannot be demonstrated without works.

2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

That verse summarizes James' point.

Please don't try to mislead people about this silly faith alone nonsense.

Please STOP misleading people about your silly faith plus works heresy.

James is a staunch advocate for salvation through faith and works.

You certainly don't know what you are talking about.

You will only ever hear the faith alone argument from Paul

Interesting that you actually admit that, but then again, you totally diss him as divinely inspired. But naturally, you would have to do that, since your silly theory is totally refuted by him, as well as the rest of the Bible.

but not from anyone who learned from Jesus while he was here on earth, not from any of Jesus' disciples.

To even suggest that Paul and Jesus weren't totally on the same page shows just how disconnected from the reality of the truth of Scripture.

It's not even worth having a discussion with you. Your claims are unworthy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What heaven are you talking about?

The one mentioned in the Bible. What did you think?

Also what eternal security, because most people who say they are Christians are still sinning willfully.

Do you have a verse that plainly says that willful sinning results in loss of salvation? Of course you don't. It doesn't exist.

However, I do have a verse that says in plain language that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28

Now Paul said in Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Note the actual words: no "sinner" has any inheritance IN IN IN IN IN the kingdom". Got it? It doesn't say will not enter the kingdom.

And in the 2 other parallel verses about inheritance and the kingdom, 1 Cor 6:6 and Gal 5:21, the wording is exactly the same; "not inherit the kingdom". Since Eph 5:5 says "have no inheritance IN the kingdom" it means the believer will have no inheritance (eternal rewards, which are earned) in the kingdom. All 3 passages are saying the same thing.

So you are misunderstanding Scripture. Why would Paul even compare unbelievers to believers regarding sin? Doesn't make sense.

Now lets understand and reason together, Paul just gave us a run down on condition of sins. People who are behaving in such manner will not inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God, even those who are unclean.

Correct. That is what Paul said. They will not have any inheritance IN IN IN IN the kingdom. Doesn't say they won't enter the kingdom.

Being unclean does not mean a person doesn’t wash up, we are not talking about soap and water. We are talking about defiling the body, with unholiness or unGodliness.

Why do you continue to reject what Jesus taught?

In John 5:24, Jesus taught that believers possess eternal life. That would mean WHEN they believe.
In John 10:28, Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life (WHEN they believe) shall never perish.

Why do you reject Jesus' teaching?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus made that clear. When a person believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). When He gives eternal life, the recipient shall never perish (John 10:28). Eternal security is very clear.

You've been given very clear verses that refute your claim. Eternal life is received the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation.

Your view demonstrates that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:24. Why don't you?

By definition, a prize is earned. Salvation is a grace GIFT, which, by definition, CANNOT be earned.

No, we give an account of our lives. On that basis, we will either receive reward or not.

I feel sorry for your total confusion about what the Bible says.

Don't feel sorry for me I'm totally not confuse

Oh, but you are. I proved it with John 5:24 and 10:28.