Once saved always saved?
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There are people who have been baptized with water and believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior and think that they are going to be saved.
These are the people who argue that a person can change their mind and stop believing. There are 3 things that need to happen for a person to be saved: 1) You need to be baptized in the name of the Father, who chooses you before the foundation of the world and grants you the repentance needed to turn to Him for forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.
2) You need to be baptized in the name of the Son, who erases your sins when you believe in His name.
3) You need to be baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit, who fills your heart with divine love so that you will be able to fulfill the Spirit of the Law and be perfected with Love.
Here is simple truth discovered in my research: 1) The heart of man mentioned in scripture is not the beating muscle organ located in our chest. The heart of a man is the unique spirit or consciousness that each unique body of a person possesses. It refers to the motivation of this consciousness which is what is wrong with humans. The natural man is born with a heart that is motivated by self-interest at the expense of others and is prone to sinning. You are baptized (not water) in the name of the Father when you are chosen by Him before the foundation of the world to receive the repentance necessary to turn to Him for forgiveness. You are baptized ( not water ) in the name of the Son when you accept Jesus as the Christ and as your Lord for the forgiveness of sin. We are still unacceptable to enter heaven because of our motivation. We are baptized ( not water ) in the name of the Holy Spirit when we receive the Spirit of the Father that is given to His Son when He was glorified to distribute to people who the Father chooses to be born again. When we receive the Spirit of the Father and of the Son in our hearts, their Spirits and ours become One and they are able to communicate with us and change our motivation by filling us with divine love so that we can fulfill the Spirit of the Law as described by Jesus which is to love God totally and everyone else as yourself second. The Spirit of the Law does not replace the Letter of the Law. The letter of the law was designed to explain how people should behave towards God and man. If you concentrate on obeying the letter of the law without love in your heart, you will fail. If you have God's love in your heart, your motivation will change to an acceptable level to enter heaven because we have been perfected.
To say that a person who is saved can loose their salvation is simply stating that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have failed. This is the argument of people who do not understand that when a person gets really saved, they are born again by the will of God who never fails and become new creatures who won't fail either.
These are the people who argue that a person can change their mind and stop believing. There are 3 things that need to happen for a person to be saved: 1) You need to be baptized in the name of the Father, who chooses you before the foundation of the world and grants you the repentance needed to turn to Him for forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.
2) You need to be baptized in the name of the Son, who erases your sins when you believe in His name.
3) You need to be baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit, who fills your heart with divine love so that you will be able to fulfill the Spirit of the Law and be perfected with Love.
Here is simple truth discovered in my research: 1) The heart of man mentioned in scripture is not the beating muscle organ located in our chest. The heart of a man is the unique spirit or consciousness that each unique body of a person possesses. It refers to the motivation of this consciousness which is what is wrong with humans. The natural man is born with a heart that is motivated by self-interest at the expense of others and is prone to sinning. You are baptized (not water) in the name of the Father when you are chosen by Him before the foundation of the world to receive the repentance necessary to turn to Him for forgiveness. You are baptized ( not water ) in the name of the Son when you accept Jesus as the Christ and as your Lord for the forgiveness of sin. We are still unacceptable to enter heaven because of our motivation. We are baptized ( not water ) in the name of the Holy Spirit when we receive the Spirit of the Father that is given to His Son when He was glorified to distribute to people who the Father chooses to be born again. When we receive the Spirit of the Father and of the Son in our hearts, their Spirits and ours become One and they are able to communicate with us and change our motivation by filling us with divine love so that we can fulfill the Spirit of the Law as described by Jesus which is to love God totally and everyone else as yourself second. The Spirit of the Law does not replace the Letter of the Law. The letter of the law was designed to explain how people should behave towards God and man. If you concentrate on obeying the letter of the law without love in your heart, you will fail. If you have God's love in your heart, your motivation will change to an acceptable level to enter heaven because we have been perfected.
To say that a person who is saved can loose their salvation is simply stating that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have failed. This is the argument of people who do not understand that when a person gets really saved, they are born again by the will of God who never fails and become new creatures who won't fail either.
FreeGrace2 said:
Since Judas never believed, he will perish, along with everyone else who never believed in Christ.
How is that different from simply "he never believed"?
Do you opine that he had believed in Jesus as Messiah? And yet STILL went to Hades??
Since Judas never believed, he will perish, along with everyone else who never believed in Christ.
How is that different from simply "he never believed"?
Do you opine that he had believed in Jesus as Messiah? And yet STILL went to Hades??
OK, you have a serious comprehension problem. There is no contradiction between John 5:24 and 10:28.
John 5:24 teaches that believers HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life. That means they HAVE it WHEN they believe.
Now, John 10:28. Jesus said RECIPIENTS of eternal life shall never perish. Is this verse really not clear to you?
Jesus said a believer HAS eternal life, in Jn 5:24. Then, in Jn 10:28 He said recipients of eternal life (flashback to Jn 5:24) shall never perish.
It is obvious that Jesus' promise in John 10:28 applies WHEN a person believes in Christ.
What you need to refute my claims is a verse that plainly says that eternal life can be lost/forfeited/given up/etc for ANY REASON.
So, go ahead and find the verse where a believer who left the faith and became a satanist loses eternal life.
That is what you need to prove your claim. I'll wait.
John 5:24 teaches that believers HAVE (as in POSSESS) eternal life. That means they HAVE it WHEN they believe.
Now, John 10:28. Jesus said RECIPIENTS of eternal life shall never perish. Is this verse really not clear to you?
Jesus said a believer HAS eternal life, in Jn 5:24. Then, in Jn 10:28 He said recipients of eternal life (flashback to Jn 5:24) shall never perish.
It is obvious that Jesus' promise in John 10:28 applies WHEN a person believes in Christ.
What you need to refute my claims is a verse that plainly says that eternal life can be lost/forfeited/given up/etc for ANY REASON.
So, go ahead and find the verse where a believer who left the faith and became a satanist loses eternal life.
That is what you need to prove your claim. I'll wait.
i am going to make a STATEMENT here rather than continue this back n forth that makes it very easy to hide behind the 100 different translated versions.
NO ONE CAN LOSE THEIR SALVATION FROM GOD!
if you BELIEVE Jesus is God and the ONLY way to the Father and remain in that belief, YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE ETERNAL SECURITY!
but.......
just like some who succumb to DOUBT, and some who are Believers and go to College and become Agnostic/Atheist/Apostate, and some who have faced something that questions why a LOVING GOD would allow such things...
one could LOSE THEIR SALVATION from their DISBELIEF!
as a person who gets paid to listen to interrogations and determine Sanity/Right from Wrong/Truth from Lies/other Factors, i am bothered when i read that there is a BELIEF if there's a ONE TIME Belief in Christ, then that person chooses Satan as their Master, they are still going to Heaven.
Professionally, there's no logic being displayed!
Spiritually, there's no Discernment being applied!
Honestly, when you are able to take a Blanket Statement and begin to apply things dealing with God's Enemy to justify them to fit your Doctrine, you are a person capable of any HEINOUS ACT. you are a THREAT to God's Holy Word and His entire Creation, not just His Followers!
You don't get it either. Read post #263. Just believing is not enough. The devil believes that Jesus is the Christ but he is not going to heaven because he is still the devil. If a person believes that Jesus is the Christ, they won't go to heaven either if they remain unchanged. Only when they are changed because they receive the Holy Spirit of the Father and Son and are born again will they receive salvation. There is the problem. Too many people think they will be saved because they believe even though there has been no change in them.
There are two ways that you can interpret John 5: 24. The wrong way is: If you heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, then you will have everlasting life. The correct way to interpret the verse is : Those that have everlasting life hear my word and believe on Him that sent me. The wrong way means that the reward for hearing and believing is eternal life. The correct way means that all who have eternal life are hearers and believers. The correct way implies that there are hearers and believers that don't have eternal life. That is because they have not been chosen by God to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit of the Father which is given to Christ to give to us to create a new birth full of love for God and man. Man will not and cannot be going to heaven without this change. Those that experience this change are totally committed, have the Spirit of the Father and Son for strength and motivation, and will never stop loving and worshipping God. Please read my post # 263.
There are two ways that you can interpret John 5: 24. The wrong way is: If you heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, then you will have everlasting life. The correct way to interpret the verse is : Those that have everlasting life hear my word and believe on Him that sent me. The wrong way means that the reward for hearing and believing is eternal life. The correct way means that all who have eternal life are hearers and believers. The correct way implies that there are hearers and believers that don't have eternal life. That is because they have not been chosen by God to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit of the Father which is given to Christ to give to us to create a new birth full of love for God and man. Man will not and cannot be going to heaven without this change. Those that experience this change are totally committed, have the Spirit of the Father and Son for strength and motivation, and will never stop loving and worshipping God. Please read my post # 263.
everyone was Chosen before the Foundation of the Earth which is why Jesus came not to CONDEMN the World but to Save it.
what is the WORLD here?
a planet cannot be condemned because it does not sin, animals cannot be condemned because they do not sin, water/air/grass/insects/clouds/buildings/weather/all cannot sin so they cannot be condemned.
ONLY humans can SIN and be CONDEMNED!
so God came to SAVE ALL HUMANS that can be CONDEMNED and with SIN!
so EVERYONE was CHOSEN before the foundation of the Earth, not just those who Believe.
so your Theory is stretching the limits of facts and needs to be deeply corrected!
what is the WORLD here?
a planet cannot be condemned because it does not sin, animals cannot be condemned because they do not sin, water/air/grass/insects/clouds/buildings/weather/all cannot sin so they cannot be condemned.
ONLY humans can SIN and be CONDEMNED!
so God came to SAVE ALL HUMANS that can be CONDEMNED and with SIN!
so EVERYONE was CHOSEN before the foundation of the Earth, not just those who Believe.
so your Theory is stretching the limits of facts and needs to be deeply corrected!
Naw naw, because Paul have the fear of God in him, Paul says in (Colo. 1:22-23) (v.22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: (v.23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settle, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister. You must continue in the faith and not be moved by the cares of the world. It’s more than confessing the name of Jesus, salvation is a work in progress you must take it one day at a time.
It is a sad thing to believe that once you say that you believe on Christ your journey is done. You have only taken the first steps toward learning about the true and living God.
It is a sad thing to believe that once you say that you believe on Christ your journey is done. You have only taken the first steps toward learning about the true and living God.
Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14).
Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
Grace was present when God created the universe.
Our differences are not about grace. It's about salvation and eternal security, which is a grace issue.
Grace is the reason for eternal security. No one can earn it (nor lose it) and no one deserves it. That is our difference.[/QUOTE]
Grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.
Our differences are not about grace. It's about salvation and eternal security, which is a grace issue.
Grace is the reason for eternal security. No one can earn it (nor lose it) and no one deserves it. That is our difference.[/QUOTE]
Grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.
You can't just grab a verse and think you can knock down all I wrote, especially when Paul says For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27) What you quoting is a different process in which you have to be
baptized, in the name of Jesus keeping the commandments of God or coming up in the white throne judgement, making in the kingdom of God on the good side. That death is talking about the second death, but the book says faith without works is dead.
The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).
A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).
baptized, in the name of Jesus keeping the commandments of God or coming up in the white throne judgement, making in the kingdom of God on the good side. That death is talking about the second death, but the book says faith without works is dead.
The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).
A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).
Then why do you posts suggest otherwise?
Oh, oh. Here it comes.
OK, there it is AGAIN!! A clear statement that one who DID believe and HAS eternal life "could LOSE THEIR SALVATION". So you again have contradicted yourself.
First you claim in caps: no one can lose their salvation from God.
Then, in the next breath, you claim again in caps; one cold lose their salvation. Doesn't matter "how", as you suggest, "from their disbelief". Doesn't matter HOW. There is NOTHING that can result in loss of salvation.
If there was, the Bible would have SAID SO. So show me any verse that specifies what will result in loss of salvation.
I KNOW that you won't be able to find any.
Too bad your "training" has totally misled you into such false doctrines.
First, there is no such thing as a "one time belief" in ANYTHING. No one believes something as a 'one time' belief.
Or, go ahead and prove it with examples.
People believe something until they change their mind. So there is NEVER your fantasy "one time belief" idea.
None of this is relevant. The Bible SAYS when a person believes in Christ, they possess eternal life, in John 5:24. There is NOTHING you can say to change that FACT.
Second, Jesus SAID clearly that RECIPIENTS of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.
So, the biblical FACT is that once a person believes in Christ for salvation, THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.
If such a person later changes their mind, for any reason, they STILL POSSESS eternal life AND SHALL NEVER PERISH.
These are Jesus' own words. And you have the audacity to disagree with Jesus.
Oh, oh. Here it comes.
OK, there it is AGAIN!! A clear statement that one who DID believe and HAS eternal life "could LOSE THEIR SALVATION". So you again have contradicted yourself.
First you claim in caps: no one can lose their salvation from God.
Then, in the next breath, you claim again in caps; one cold lose their salvation. Doesn't matter "how", as you suggest, "from their disbelief". Doesn't matter HOW. There is NOTHING that can result in loss of salvation.
If there was, the Bible would have SAID SO. So show me any verse that specifies what will result in loss of salvation.
I KNOW that you won't be able to find any.
Too bad your "training" has totally misled you into such false doctrines.
First, there is no such thing as a "one time belief" in ANYTHING. No one believes something as a 'one time' belief.
Or, go ahead and prove it with examples.
People believe something until they change their mind. So there is NEVER your fantasy "one time belief" idea.
None of this is relevant. The Bible SAYS when a person believes in Christ, they possess eternal life, in John 5:24. There is NOTHING you can say to change that FACT.
Second, Jesus SAID clearly that RECIPIENTS of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH, in John 10:28.
So, the biblical FACT is that once a person believes in Christ for salvation, THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.
If such a person later changes their mind, for any reason, they STILL POSSESS eternal life AND SHALL NEVER PERISH.
These are Jesus' own words. And you have the audacity to disagree with Jesus.
Your comment to "the watchers" shows that you don't get it either.
Satan was created in heaven. So of course he and ALL the fallen angels know EXACTLY who Jesus is; the Son of God. But did satan ever trust in Jesus for salvation? Of course not. So your comment is irrelevant. Angels to humans is apples to oranges.
The Bereans of Acts 17:11 would "search the Scriptures daily to see is what "CL" says is true. So, please prove your claim with verses from the Bible that SAY what you SAY.
All this occurs WHEN a person believes. Haven't you read Eph 1:13,14? Paul wrote, "having believed" (completed action) you have been sealed (completed action) with the Holy Spirit.
I have just noted and corrected your problem of not understanding the Bible.
No, there is only 1 way; to take it literally as stated. All other "ways" are merely opinions of people.
Yet, that is just what the verse SAYS.
OK, let's clear up this mess of yours.
In order to believe, one MUST hear. You can't believe something that you haven't heard about. So you are trying to make "hearing" a lifestyle change, but it doesn't fly.
Second, the verse is too clear for your opinion that tries to change the obvious meaning.
That is a failure to understand clear words.
Sounds rather reformed to me. So, prove your claim here with verses.
Prove it from Scripture.
No thank you. This post of yours demonstrates your misunderstanding of Scripture.
Satan was created in heaven. So of course he and ALL the fallen angels know EXACTLY who Jesus is; the Son of God. But did satan ever trust in Jesus for salvation? Of course not. So your comment is irrelevant. Angels to humans is apples to oranges.
The Bereans of Acts 17:11 would "search the Scriptures daily to see is what "CL" says is true. So, please prove your claim with verses from the Bible that SAY what you SAY.
All this occurs WHEN a person believes. Haven't you read Eph 1:13,14? Paul wrote, "having believed" (completed action) you have been sealed (completed action) with the Holy Spirit.
I have just noted and corrected your problem of not understanding the Bible.
No, there is only 1 way; to take it literally as stated. All other "ways" are merely opinions of people.
Yet, that is just what the verse SAYS.
OK, let's clear up this mess of yours.
In order to believe, one MUST hear. You can't believe something that you haven't heard about. So you are trying to make "hearing" a lifestyle change, but it doesn't fly.
Second, the verse is too clear for your opinion that tries to change the obvious meaning.
That is a failure to understand clear words.
Sounds rather reformed to me. So, prove your claim here with verses.
Prove it from Scripture.
No thank you. This post of yours demonstrates your misunderstanding of Scripture.
FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus made that clear. When a person believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). When He gives eternal life, the recipient shall never perish (John 10:28). Eternal security is very clear.
You've been given very clear verses that refute your claim. Eternal life is received the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation.
Your view demonstrates that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:24. Why don't you?
By definition, a prize is earned. Salvation is a grace GIFT, which, by definition, CANNOT be earned.
No, we give an account of our lives. On that basis, we will either receive reward or not.
I feel sorry for your total confusion about what the Bible says.
Jesus made that clear. When a person believes, they HAVE eternal life (John 5:24). When He gives eternal life, the recipient shall never perish (John 10:28). Eternal security is very clear.
You've been given very clear verses that refute your claim. Eternal life is received the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation.
Your view demonstrates that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:24. Why don't you?
By definition, a prize is earned. Salvation is a grace GIFT, which, by definition, CANNOT be earned.
No, we give an account of our lives. On that basis, we will either receive reward or not.
I feel sorry for your total confusion about what the Bible says.
Matt 7: 13-14 Enter in at the narrow gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in that way; Because narrow is the gate, and hard is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
John 17: 2 As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him.
Matt 20: 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last; for many are called, but few are chosen.
The words "many" and "few" imply " not all". In the Father's perfect kingdom we are all guilty of sin and beccause of His perfect justice are all condemned to eternal punishment. None of us are worthy of salvation. If He condemns everyone, then He would be merciless. If He saves everyone, then there will be lawlessness and no justice in heaven. His only choice is to display His mercy by saving a few.
John 17: 2 As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him.
Matt 20: 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last; for many are called, but few are chosen.
The words "many" and "few" imply " not all". In the Father's perfect kingdom we are all guilty of sin and beccause of His perfect justice are all condemned to eternal punishment. None of us are worthy of salvation. If He condemns everyone, then He would be merciless. If He saves everyone, then there will be lawlessness and no justice in heaven. His only choice is to display His mercy by saving a few.