Once saved always saved?
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FreeGrace2 said:
Rather, they never had faith, as evidenced by what Jesus told them: "I never knew you". If they HAD ever believed, how could Jesus say that?
?? Please don't get any splinters on that fence.
Works don't prove salvation. Unbelievers do works all the time thinking they will be saved by what they DO.
And, if they had ever believed, how could Jesus say "I never knew you"? If they had believed, He would have given them eternal life, as John 5:24 and 10:28 says.
They never believed or Jesus wouldn't have said he never knew them.
According to John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12, condemnation is based on "those who have not believed", meaning NEVER believed.
Rather, they never had faith, as evidenced by what Jesus told them: "I never knew you". If they HAD ever believed, how could Jesus say that?
?? Please don't get any splinters on that fence.
Works don't prove salvation. Unbelievers do works all the time thinking they will be saved by what they DO.
And, if they had ever believed, how could Jesus say "I never knew you"? If they had believed, He would have given them eternal life, as John 5:24 and 10:28 says.
They never believed or Jesus wouldn't have said he never knew them.
According to John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12, condemnation is based on "those who have not believed", meaning NEVER believed.
OK.
From #122
"So the Bible speaks of security and also warns of apostasy. Also there is much writing about enduring to the end.
Its likely that human effort would cause falling away rather than preservation.
I think its very sad that you assumed that I hold some kind of works position because I dont think osas understands salvation."
It seems you think apostasy results in loss of salvation. But what verse actually says that? If there is security in our salvation, how can anything threaten it? That wouldn't make sense.
So, how do you think that OSAS doesn't understand salvation??
Then, from #132
"I believe in security but that security isnt in my hands. In fact I think the only way that security can be lost is to take your salvation into your own hands.[/QUOTE]
No one can take their salvation into their own hands. John 10:28,29 tells us where our salvation and security is: in God's hand.
They never believed, as noted by what Jesus said to them: I never knew you.
If one is saved, then they are secure. Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.
Condemnation is based solely on "having not believed" in Christ.
So, back to my question; how does OSAS not understand salvation?
From #122
"So the Bible speaks of security and also warns of apostasy. Also there is much writing about enduring to the end.
Its likely that human effort would cause falling away rather than preservation.
I think its very sad that you assumed that I hold some kind of works position because I dont think osas understands salvation."
It seems you think apostasy results in loss of salvation. But what verse actually says that? If there is security in our salvation, how can anything threaten it? That wouldn't make sense.
So, how do you think that OSAS doesn't understand salvation??
Then, from #132
"I believe in security but that security isnt in my hands. In fact I think the only way that security can be lost is to take your salvation into your own hands.[/QUOTE]
No one can take their salvation into their own hands. John 10:28,29 tells us where our salvation and security is: in God's hand.
They never believed, as noted by what Jesus said to them: I never knew you.
If one is saved, then they are secure. Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.
Condemnation is based solely on "having not believed" in Christ.
So, back to my question; how does OSAS not understand salvation?
You fall away from the faith means you are no longer in the faith. No faith no salvation. That is why both arminians and calvinists recognize the biblical teaching. It is absolutely incredible I have to even type this out, what happens to the branches who are cut off from Jesus(The vine) who do not abide in Him in John 15? Does it say they are A-okay?
You are very deceived if you have fallen as your name suggests to the "free grace" gutter. Very unbiblical and very untrue. You are probably too deep in the mud and too commited to this unbiblical teaching to be persuaded out of it, but I still decided to write this just in case some poor unsuspecting soul is buying into this end times apostasy teaching you are providing here. Salvation is like having fire insurance nowadays, you don't even have to believe in Jesus to be saved anymore lol. Or well, you do but you can just believe once and then "fall away" aand you are still saved. Incredible deception we are facing in these times.
You are very deceived if you have fallen as your name suggests to the "free grace" gutter. Very unbiblical and very untrue. You are probably too deep in the mud and too commited to this unbiblical teaching to be persuaded out of it, but I still decided to write this just in case some poor unsuspecting soul is buying into this end times apostasy teaching you are providing here. Salvation is like having fire insurance nowadays, you don't even have to believe in Jesus to be saved anymore lol. Or well, you do but you can just believe once and then "fall away" aand you are still saved. Incredible deception we are facing in these times.
i see you have purposefully not added the Verse before 2 Timothy 2:
12 if we are patient, we shall also reign with him; if we shall deny him, he will also deny us;
13 if we believe not, he abides faithful; for he can not deny himself.
using the Word to spread false reasoning is the same as lying!
12 if we are patient, we shall also reign with him; if we shall deny him, he will also deny us;
13 if we believe not, he abides faithful; for he can not deny himself.
using the Word to spread false reasoning is the same as lying!
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Hi PennEd. No, not at all. I believe every sin can be forgiven; but we must confess it/ repent of it. Hence, if we confess/repent of unforgiveness, it too is surely washed away by the Blood of Jesus, just like any other sin. The problem is if we do not.
1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
God Bless.
1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
God Bless.
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No one can take their salvation into their own hands. John 10:28,29 tells us where our salvation and security is: in God's hand.
They never believed, as noted by what Jesus said to them: I never knew you.
If one is saved, then they are secure. Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.
Condemnation is based solely on "having not believed" in Christ.
So, back to my question; how does OSAS not understand salvation?[/QUOTE]
They believed themselves saved, and even called Jesus Lord. But they were lost. They were lost because they trusted in their works that even did in the name of Jesus.
They never believed, as noted by what Jesus said to them: I never knew you.
If one is saved, then they are secure. Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.
Condemnation is based solely on "having not believed" in Christ.
So, back to my question; how does OSAS not understand salvation?[/QUOTE]
They believed themselves saved, and even called Jesus Lord. But they were lost. They were lost because they trusted in their works that even did in the name of Jesus.
Those that God gave to his Son to die for their sins (John 6:37) have the security of their eternal inheritance. Once they have been born by natural birth into this world, and then are born again, (Eph 2:1-5), they cannot lose their inheritance. They can lose their fellowship with God when they commit a sin, because God will not fellowship with sin.
God will, however, chasten them by pricking their hearts, to feel guilty until they repent and regain their fellowship with God.
Salvation is a deliverance. There is an eternal deliverance, and there are many deliverances that the child of God receives as he sojourns here in this world.
If you are interpreting all of the salvation scriptures to eternal salvation, they will sway you to believe that eternal deliverance is gained by your good works. Eternal deliverance is by God's sovereign grace. Timely deliverances are gained by your good works.
Matt 24:11-13 - And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many, and because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold, but he that endures unto the end, the same shall be saved (delivered, from being deceived)
Enduring to the end, is an effort (work), the same shall be saved (delivered). This is an example of timely salvation by the works of mankind.
These, so called, ministers that have denied the faith, have not lost their eternal inheritance, but have temporary lost their fellowship with God, until they repent.
Anytime a scripture directs someone to repent, it is not directed to the unregenerate person, because they will not repent of breaking a spiritual law of a spiritual God, that they cannot understand, and thinks it to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). But repentance is directed toward the born again child of God, who has had his stony heart exchanged for a heart of flesh, (Ezk 11:19), that can be pricked to feel guilt. (Acts 2:37).
In John 15, Our Lord Jesus Christ tells us that, once justified, we are called and commanded to bear fruit. Now if we refuse to do so, in an extreme case, He mentions, the Father may cut us off; this possibility is not precluded by the Bible, and so imho we shouldn't preclude it either; of course, I certainly hope it never happens to any of us, or anyone at all; but it might. We should Pray, Fast, Give Alms, Forgive, Love one Another, Love God with all our hearts, and do everything else commanded in the Gospel while waiting to be given the Grace of Perseverance in the Faith. God did not give that to the Apostles immediately after Justification, but only on Pentecost. He too will give it to us, at some point in our Christian Life, if we faithfully ask for it.
"The Vine and the Branches - John 15, NIV:
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."
God Bless.
"The Vine and the Branches - John 15, NIV:
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."
God Bless.
So, you are interpreting "if we believe not" to mean "denying Jesus", yes? Believing not, is having a lack of faith. We can have a lack of faith, and still not deny Christ.
I see you have purposefully not commented on Eph 2:5. where we are quickened together with Christ. When we are born again, we are in Christ, and Christ is in us.
I resent you accusing me of lying, just because you cannot interpret scriptures correctly.
This is an oft repeated myth. To fall away means to no longer believe. But it doesn't mean "no longer saved" as so many think.
This is another myth. The truth: once faith, "shall never perish". Jesus said so in John 10:28. In that verse, He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. No ifs, ands, or buts. He gave no exceptions, and no conditions on believers in order to never perish.
The gift of eternal life is possessed when a person believes in Christ. John 5:24
And they don't understand it at all. Arminians think that salvation can be lost. That is really a heresy.
Do you even understand what Jesus was telling the 11? When Jesus mentioned "abiding in Him and He in them" He was referring to being IN fellowship with the Lord. Believers who are out of fellowship cannot bear fruit. That was His point.
Why everyone seems to make it about salvation is amazing.
Ha. My Bible study method is exactly what the Bereans did with Paul's teachings. They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said is true."
That's what I have done with both Calvinist and Arminian teachings. And there are big errors in both. Neither system can quote verses that actually and plainly SAY what they keep claiming.
I have to wonder how accurate your heavily biased view of FG theology is.
Could you please simply state what specific teaching you are referring to?
Well, I never said such bunk. So if you want to discuss with me, at least be honest and accurate about what I believe.
Those who have never believed in Jesus will NEVER be saved. Got it? Do not ascribe to me whatever nonsense is out there.
OK, good to know. You do NOT believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Shame on you. I DO believe what He said.
You among all the rest.
This is another myth. The truth: once faith, "shall never perish". Jesus said so in John 10:28. In that verse, He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. No ifs, ands, or buts. He gave no exceptions, and no conditions on believers in order to never perish.
The gift of eternal life is possessed when a person believes in Christ. John 5:24
And they don't understand it at all. Arminians think that salvation can be lost. That is really a heresy.
Do you even understand what Jesus was telling the 11? When Jesus mentioned "abiding in Him and He in them" He was referring to being IN fellowship with the Lord. Believers who are out of fellowship cannot bear fruit. That was His point.
Why everyone seems to make it about salvation is amazing.
Ha. My Bible study method is exactly what the Bereans did with Paul's teachings. They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said is true."
That's what I have done with both Calvinist and Arminian teachings. And there are big errors in both. Neither system can quote verses that actually and plainly SAY what they keep claiming.
I have to wonder how accurate your heavily biased view of FG theology is.
Could you please simply state what specific teaching you are referring to?
Well, I never said such bunk. So if you want to discuss with me, at least be honest and accurate about what I believe.
Those who have never believed in Jesus will NEVER be saved. Got it? Do not ascribe to me whatever nonsense is out there.
OK, good to know. You do NOT believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Shame on you. I DO believe what He said.
You among all the rest.