Once saved always saved?

[AndrewMorgan]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

Not only Dillahunty, but the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham when he set out to be an evangelist, Charles Templeton. He and Billy roomed together during a European crusade in 1947. He was a world class evangelist.

However, he lost his faith and concluded that the Bible wasn't true and God didn't exist, over a terrible misunderstanding of Genesis 1.

So, what does the Bible say about those who lose faith? This is what Jesus said about losing faith.

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

So Jesus acknowledges that believers can believe only "for a while", and when testing/temptations occur, "they fall away" (from their faith).

So this establishes that believers can cease to believe, which refutes the Calvinist claim that true believers will persevere in the faith. Not true, as Jesus noted.

So, what happens when a believer falls away from the faith? There are 2 verses that address this issue.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses describe those who "have not believed". It is those who "will be condemned". iow, once a person HAS believed, they shall never be condemned.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

To be condemned is to "be judged". So once a person believes Jesus says they "will not be judged", which is parallel to the 2 previous verses.

One more verse to consider:

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus said very clearly that those given eternal life "shall never perish". And He gave no exceptions to this.

So, once a person has believed in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for personal sins, that person becomes a permanent child of God, possesses eternal life (John 5:24), has been regenerated (Titus 3:5), is sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13,14). None of these things can be taken away, for any reason.

However, the Bible is also very clear about the consequences for ceasing to believe or leaving the faith. God promises discipline for His children who are rebellious or unfaithful. And the discipline is painful (Heb 12:11), and can include physical death, per 1 Cor 5:5, 11:30, Acts 5, and many other verses.

So, while there is nothing that can result in loss of salvation, every believer must be aware of the warnings about being rebellious or unfaithful to the Lord.

iow, no one will 'get away' with anything. Arminians seem to think that the doctrine of eternal security leads to sinfulness. That may occur when the doctrine of divine discipline isn't taught along side of eternal security.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

If a person becomes an apostate/atheist, it's very tragic, but he's lost. He can be saved again, to be sure, if he repents and comes back to Christ.

From: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 10&version=NIV

Hebrews 10, NIV:

"A Call to Persevere in Faith
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”[f]
38 And,

“But my righteous[g] one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”[h]
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved."

God Bless.

 

[PennEd]

devout Christian and later became an atheist?

What is a devout Christian?

Yes, I know this subject has been beaten to utter death, but new people come in all the time.

So to answer the threads question, once born again, from above, ALWAYS born again.


A "devout" unregenerated person, who claims to be a Christian, often APPEAR to be a devout Christian. The very fact that this person you name LEFT, PROVES he was NEVER one to begin with.

1 John 2:19

New King James Version

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE of them WERE of us.

 

[Chester]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

The answer to me is quite simple:

The person who believes in the atoning work of Jesus Christ and his resurrection is saved.
The person who does not believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ and his resurrection is not saved.

Only the believer has eternal life. The unbeliever does not have eternal life.

All men (including Christians) have free choice: God does not force anyone to believe and follow Him. But for those who do believe and choose to follow Him, He brings joy, forgiveness, and eternal life. But He does not take away a believer's free choice.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Once saved always saved is based on a faulty understanding of what it means to be "saved." It doesn't mean God zaps us and we become a better version of ourselves and can never be undone. For example, let's say someone gets "saved" and is zapped into a new version of themself. Then later that person curses God, renounces their salvation, becomes an atheist or Satanist and actively works in hostility toward God. Under the "zapped" theory of salvation all is well with this person; he or she can never become unzapped and will find their eternal reward safe and sound in heaven.

Someone might argue: If I've been zapped and have become a new version of myself, why would I reject God or Christ? That's easy. No one would say that a zapped person is incapable of sin would would they? Of course not. And if they're still capable of sin it's still possible for them to become deluded and ensnared by Satan. I don't believe in the zapped theory, I only say this to show that such an argument is erroneous.

But this isn't how it works. We do become a new creation in Christ: "in Christ" being the key phrase. We have salvation because Christ lives in us. We're free to reject Him at any time and kick Him out. At that point we've thrown away our lifeline.

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." 2 Corinthians 13:5

 

[FreeGrace2]

If a person becomes an apostate/atheist, it's very tragic, but he's lost.

According to Jesus' parable of the prodigal son, He used "lost" to define a person totally out of fellowship, but NOT a loss of relationship.

iow, the son remained a son throughout the parable. He never became a servant, etc. Even though he was willing.

When a person ceases to believe they are a child of God nonetheless. There are no verses that a son loses his sonship.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The bolded words are the SAME in each verse. They mean the same thing. To "have not believed" means to NEVER have believed.

So, when a believer does what the second soil did in Luke 8:13, and fall away from the faith, because they HAVE believed previously, they are STILL saved. Condemnation is for "those who never believed".

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse is a guarantee of eternal security. Once given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Period.

Jesus gave no "conditions" beyond receiving the gift of eternal life.

Arminians have other ideas.

He can be saved again, to be sure, if he repents and comes back to Christ.

What verse treaches this?? It isn't Heb 10.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

This one does.

1 Jn 1, NKJV:

"
Fellowship with Him and One Another
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Once saved always saved is based on a faulty understanding of what it means to be "saved."

No, it doesn't. There are many ways to communicate eternal security.

Once a son, always a son.
Once belief, always saved.
Once sealed with the Spirit, always saved.
Once regenerated, always saved.

I'm sure that people more astute than I could add many more to my list.

It doesn't mean God zaps us and we become a better version of ourselves and can never be undone. For example, let's say someone gets "saved" and is zapped into a new version of themself.

Well, let's not say that. Because the Bible never says any of this. The Bible does say that those who are "in Christ", meaning they have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, are NEW creatures. No "zapping" required.

Then later that person curses God, renounces their salvation, becomes an atheist or Satanist and actively works in hostility toward God. Under the "zapped" theory of salvation all is well with this person

Actually, not. Unfortunately there are some or many (?) who FAIL to teach about God's divine discipline. So "all is NOT well" with such an individual. They will be under God's PAINFUL discipline (Heb 12:11). You want to live a painful life? Then go ahead and do all those things. But know this; no one ever "gets away" with anything. God is not stupid or maudlin.

he or she can never become unzapped and will find their eternal reward safe and sound in heaven.

While this is true, their life will be miserable. They will be under God's painful discipline.

But this isn't how it works. We do become a new creation in Christ: "in Christ" being the key phrase. We have salvation because Christ lives in us. We're free to reject Him at any time and kick Him out.

Really now? Where did you learn this from? You really think you or anyone else has the power to "kick" the Lord Jesus out of your life?

You must not have a very high view of divine power if you really believe all this.

At that point we've thrown away our lifeline.

Oh yeah. Another statement that is NOT in the Bible.

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." 2 Corinthians 13:5

OK, so you don't understand what Paul meant by examining yourself to see if you are "in the faith". He certainly didn't mean to evaluate yourself to determine if you are saved. You don't have that ability. And, the only way would be to literally see the Holy Spirit nestled comfortably in you.

No. Paul meant to evaluate your life to determine if you are LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE. That's what he meant.

iow, do you have deeds that demonstrate your faith? This is exactly what James' point was in James 2:14-26.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

this debate always brings up how someone who was a Believer, FELL, and no longer a believer = [[never was a Believer to begin with]]

i disagree!

only a few of us will ever have similar trials like Job did. most will only deal with maybe one or 2 things Job dealt with or something all together different. people forget themselves let alone God who has sustained them.

unlike Job, what i lost was my own doing. i created my own valley. i dug the hole so deep when i looked up i still wasn't seeing bottom. i wandered the desert for 20+ years. oddly enough, it was a tragedy that caused me to slip and fall and an even equal tragedy that caused me to find myself and God again.

the thing i am always most grateful and reminded of that God had Mercy upon me and did not let me die in that state of existence i ran towards.

i lost so much. still am losing because of it. the heartaches are more real the older i get.

i believe we can walk away from God after being truly Saved.

but those experiences also have strengthened me to understand i can make it now with God until the end.

 

[oyster67]

This is an oft-debated question in Christian circles, but I'd like to bring up a particular situation. Rather than the case of losing salvation through a certain sin or sins, what about when a once-believer loses belief in God/ Jesus - as in - eg - Matt Dillahunty, who was devout Christian and later became an atheist?

Don't know the story. Can't read his mind. But...

If he was truly a devout man of God, I rather doubt that he is a real atheist.

When a man turns off The Path and wilfully goes another way, it is generally because he prefers his own way to what he knows is God's way.

Hebrews 6:5 Context

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[oyster67]

Yes, I know this subject has been beaten to utter death, but new people come in all the time.

Yes. This is why these discussions must be repeated over and over and over.

Bless you, dear brother.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

What is a devout Christian?

Yes, I know this subject has been beaten to utter death, but new people come in all the time.

So to answer the threads question, once born again, from above, ALWAYS born again.


A "devout" unregenerated person, who claims to be a Christian, often APPEAR to be a devout Christian. The very fact that this person you name LEFT, PROVES he was NEVER one to begin with.

1 John 2:19

New King James Version

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE of them WERE of us.

Thanks for replying. In light of your seeming OSAS response, what do you make of Heb6:4-6, which says - paraphrasing - "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, as they crucifly the Lord afresh and expose Him to an op⁰

What is a devout Christian?

Yes, I know this subject has been beaten to utter death, but new people come in all the time.

So to answer the threads question, once born again, from above, ALWAYS born again.


A "devout" unregenerated person, who claims to be a Christian, often APPEAR to be a devout Christian. The very fact that this person you name LEFT, PROVES he was NEVER one to begin with.

1 John 2:19

New King James Version

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE of them WERE of us.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Thanks for replying. In light of your seeming OSAS response, what do you make of Heb6:4-6, which says - paraphrasing - "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, as they crucifly the Lord afresh and expose Him to an open shame.

Not only Dillahunty, but the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham when he set out to be an evangelist, Charles Templeton. He and Billy roomed together during a European crusade in 1947. He was a world class evangelist.

However, he lost his faith and concluded that the Bible wasn't true and God didn't exist, over a terrible misunderstanding of Genesis 1.

So, what does the Bible say about those who lose faith? This is what Jesus said about losing faith.

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

So Jesus acknowledges that believers can believe only "for a while", and when testing/temptations occur, "they fall away" (from their faith).

So this establishes that believers can cease to believe, which refutes the Calvinist claim that true believers will persevere in the faith. Not true, as Jesus noted.

So, what happens when a believer falls away from the faith? There are 2 verses that address this issue.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses describe those who "have not believed". It is those who "will be condemned". iow, once a person HAS believed, they shall never be condemned.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

To be condemned is to "be judged". So once a person believes Jesus says they "will not be judged", which is parallel to the 2 previous verses.

One more verse to consider:

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse, Jesus said very clearly that those given eternal life "shall never perish". And He gave no exceptions to this.

So, once a person has believed in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for personal sins, that person becomes a permanent child of God, possesses eternal life (John 5:24), has been regenerated (Titus 3:5), is sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13,14). None of these things can be taken away, for any reason.

However, the Bible is also very clear about the consequences for ceasing to believe or leaving the faith. God promises discipline for His children who are rebellious or unfaithful. And the discipline is painful (Heb 12:11), and can include physical death, per 1 Cor 5:5, 11:30, Acts 5, and many other verses.

So, while there is nothing that can result in loss of salvation, every believer must be aware of the warnings about being rebellious or unfaithful to the Lord.

iow, no one will 'get away' with anything. Arminians seem to think that the doctrine of eternal security leads to sinfulness. That may occur when the doctrine of divine discipline isn't taught along side of eternal security.

What is a devout Christian?

Yes, I know this subject has been beaten to utter death, but new people come in all the time.

So to answer the threads question, once born again, from above, ALWAYS born again.


A "devout" unregenerated person, who claims to be a Christian, often APPEAR to be a devout Christian. The very fact that this person you name LEFT, PROVES he was NEVER one to begin with.

1 John 2:19

New King James Version

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE of them WERE of us.

1llk

Thanks for replying. In light of your seeming OSAS response, what do you make of Heb6:4-6, which says - paraphrasing - "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, as they crucifly the Lord afresh and expose Him to an op⁰[/QUOTE

 

[Magenta]

1 John 2:19

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Sorry, I accidentally posted prematurely.
As for Dillahunty - He wasn't someone who heard the word, continued for a while and then suddenly fell away. He was born into a Christian family, earnestly sought God, dedicated himself at an early age, studied the Bible, was going to become a minister, to "fulfil his duty as per 1Per3:15" and subsequently found he was unable to justify his assertions.

 

[John146]

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Not according to Hebrews. Hebrews is not a doctrinal book for the body of Christ. Hebrews is more of a historical book to show Jesus to the Jews during the time of Jacob's trouble. Paul states very clearly that when one believes the gospel, he or she is sealed unto the redemption. It's not performance based. We can do nothing to earn it or keep it.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Don't know the story. Can't read his mind. But...

If he was truly a devout man of God, I rather doubt that he is a real atheist.

When a man turns off The Path and wilfully goes another way, it is generally because he prefers his own way to what he knows is God's way.

Hebrews 6:5 Context

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I don't know if you know Dillahunty. Having seen much of his footage, there's no doubt in my mind that he's a real atheist. He seems to logically reason his thoughts and, at least in his mind, is logical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

AndrewMorgan said:
Thanks for replying. In light of your seeming OSAS response, what do you make of Heb6:4-6, which says - paraphrasing - "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, as they crucifly the Lord afresh and expose Him to an op

I guess this is also for me, since you included my post in your post.

Before I answer Heb 6:4-6, I'd like to ask you a question. What did you think of the verses I quoted in my post?

I believe they are so clear as to be impossible to believe that salvation can be lost.

Anyway, I'm interested in your view of the verses I gave. Then I'll happily answer your question about Heb 6:4-6.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, I accidentally posted prematurely.
As for Dillahunty - He wasn't someone who heard the word, continued for a while and then suddenly fell away. He was born into a Christian family, earnestly sought God, dedicated himself at an early age, studied the Bible, was going to become a minister, to "fulfil his duty as per 1Per3:15" and subsequently found he was unable to justify his assertions.

If he EVER put his trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ, he was given eternal life, and Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.