Former pentecostal
- Thread starter JonathanBentley
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Ecclesiastes 4:12
And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
That is talking about two people “Christians” being and working together; but what makes that 3 fold cord? It is Jesus.
Matthew 18:19&20
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Verses 19&20 are not taken out of context. Verses 16-18 are talking about what to do if a brother or sisters wrongs you. Here is the 2 passages together . Notice there is a space between 18 and 19. The end of one paragraph and the start of another.
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Here it is in the Berean Study bible notice it is under a whole different heading
A Brother Who Sins
(Deuteronomy 19:15–21)
15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Ask in My Name
(John 16:23–33)
19Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”
Again please show me where you are getting this idea from. It makes no sense to me
And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
That is talking about two people “Christians” being and working together; but what makes that 3 fold cord? It is Jesus.
Matthew 18:19&20
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Verses 19&20 are not taken out of context. Verses 16-18 are talking about what to do if a brother or sisters wrongs you. Here is the 2 passages together . Notice there is a space between 18 and 19. The end of one paragraph and the start of another.
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Here it is in the Berean Study bible notice it is under a whole different heading
A Brother Who Sins
(Deuteronomy 19:15–21)
15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Ask in My Name
(John 16:23–33)
19Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”
Again please show me where you are getting this idea from. It makes no sense to me
Weeeell.. anything Jesus says to the disciples is for them at that time unless it is clear there is no limitation to it in the future or it is clear Jesus is referring to a different future time.
So please enlighten me as to what parts of the bible are me and which are for you, and which were for the disciples. I thought that the bible from Genesis to Revelation was for all of us.
So for eg... The prophecy of people dreaming dreams and having visions..etc gets mostly fulfilled in Acts with Peter getting up and declaring it happening at that time.
So prophecy got mostly fulfilled in Acts with Peter? What about Revelation, Ezekiel, Danial . . . where does all that fit in?
Wattie I do not know you by anything but your posts that I have read and I have not read them all but I have to ask this does not sound anything like the Jesus of my bible are you sure you are following the right Jesus?
So please enlighten me as to what parts of the bible are me and which are for you, and which were for the disciples. I thought that the bible from Genesis to Revelation was for all of us.
So for eg... The prophecy of people dreaming dreams and having visions..etc gets mostly fulfilled in Acts with Peter getting up and declaring it happening at that time.
So prophecy got mostly fulfilled in Acts with Peter? What about Revelation, Ezekiel, Danial . . . where does all that fit in?
Wattie I do not know you by anything but your posts that I have read and I have not read them all but I have to ask this does not sound anything like the Jesus of my bible are you sure you are following the right Jesus?
Alrighty.. point one.. on the visions and dreams..
(Joel 2:28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
(Joel 2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
(Joel 2:30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
(Joel 2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
(Joel 2:32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Part of this passage is fulfilled here:
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
So-- that is what I was meaning with the visions-- partially fulfilled right there at that time with Peter getting up and explaining it. There is also the future part of it.. that does get fulfilled in end times.. this is true.. but the point remains.
In regards to the disciples.. they were specially empowered so they could take up snakes and not get poisoned.. this doesn't go on now.. those who have attempted this I think have basically ended up getting bit and sick. Does this mean now we don't have enough faith for this to happen? No! It is an exceptional thing. Not the norm.
Jesus was with them in person.. and was doing miracles that are exceptional for very particular teaching and theological purposes-- nothing random about them. Rare, exceptional.. 100 percent .. instant or very short time happening. This may be happening now.. but does it match the biblical miracle?
What people can take from the NT? Anything that doesn't have obvious limitations and exceptions to it. It's just reading context.
Peace
(Joel 2:28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
(Joel 2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
(Joel 2:30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
(Joel 2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
(Joel 2:32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Part of this passage is fulfilled here:
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
So-- that is what I was meaning with the visions-- partially fulfilled right there at that time with Peter getting up and explaining it. There is also the future part of it.. that does get fulfilled in end times.. this is true.. but the point remains.
In regards to the disciples.. they were specially empowered so they could take up snakes and not get poisoned.. this doesn't go on now.. those who have attempted this I think have basically ended up getting bit and sick. Does this mean now we don't have enough faith for this to happen? No! It is an exceptional thing. Not the norm.
Jesus was with them in person.. and was doing miracles that are exceptional for very particular teaching and theological purposes-- nothing random about them. Rare, exceptional.. 100 percent .. instant or very short time happening. This may be happening now.. but does it match the biblical miracle?
What people can take from the NT? Anything that doesn't have obvious limitations and exceptions to it. It's just reading context.
Peace
Peter quoted scripture and set this all 'in the last days.' Why would you say this is for Peter's time and 'in end times', but that this does not include the time we are in now? What scripture says that, that there is a gap between the first part of the last days and some kind of continuation in the end times? That seems made up.
When Jesus was presented with scripture that angels would 'bear thee up, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone', and was tempted with jumping off the pinnacle of the temple, He quoted, 'Thou shalt not tempt the Lord Thy God.' We are not to quote a scripture and then do something dangerous for no good reason to get God to do a miracle. Paul was taking care of a fire when he was bitten. He wasn't playing with snakes.
Be that as it may, it sounds like you base your theology on what you see in the natural world. That is one approach. Another is to say if I haven't seen this passage play out in my experience, it is still true.
I have never been to a snake handling church, btw, but I believe a lot them handle snakes and do not get bitten, or they don't die from it. If they all got bit and died right away, their movement would have just died out rather quickly.
[qoute] Does this mean now we don't have enough faith for this to happen? No! It is an exceptional thing. Not the norm.[/quote]
The Bible doesn't show any of the 12 doing this. Paul got bit by a snake, but did not die on one occasion. The passage about picking up serpents is in Mark 16, and it is about 'them that believe.' The passage does not say that each individual would heal the sick and each individual would pick up serpents. It says these things will be done by 'them.' I Corinthians 12, which is focused on gifts to edify the body as opposed to signs, and is not exactly the same list but has tongues and healing in it like the passage in Mark 16, shows that gifts are distributed among the saints with one believer having one gift and another saint having another.
I suppose it depends on the miracles. God can have reasons for doing certain things today also. Before performing one healing, Jesus said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe." In Acts, the Samaritans paid close attention after they saw the miracles Stephen performed. Sergius Paulus believed after Saul of Tarsus was filled with the Holy Ghost and told Elymas he would be blind and it happened.
When Jesus was presented with scripture that angels would 'bear thee up, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone', and was tempted with jumping off the pinnacle of the temple, He quoted, 'Thou shalt not tempt the Lord Thy God.' We are not to quote a scripture and then do something dangerous for no good reason to get God to do a miracle. Paul was taking care of a fire when he was bitten. He wasn't playing with snakes.
Be that as it may, it sounds like you base your theology on what you see in the natural world. That is one approach. Another is to say if I haven't seen this passage play out in my experience, it is still true.
I have never been to a snake handling church, btw, but I believe a lot them handle snakes and do not get bitten, or they don't die from it. If they all got bit and died right away, their movement would have just died out rather quickly.
[qoute] Does this mean now we don't have enough faith for this to happen? No! It is an exceptional thing. Not the norm.[/quote]
The Bible doesn't show any of the 12 doing this. Paul got bit by a snake, but did not die on one occasion. The passage about picking up serpents is in Mark 16, and it is about 'them that believe.' The passage does not say that each individual would heal the sick and each individual would pick up serpents. It says these things will be done by 'them.' I Corinthians 12, which is focused on gifts to edify the body as opposed to signs, and is not exactly the same list but has tongues and healing in it like the passage in Mark 16, shows that gifts are distributed among the saints with one believer having one gift and another saint having another.
I suppose it depends on the miracles. God can have reasons for doing certain things today also. Before performing one healing, Jesus said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe." In Acts, the Samaritans paid close attention after they saw the miracles Stephen performed. Sergius Paulus believed after Saul of Tarsus was filled with the Holy Ghost and told Elymas he would be blind and it happened.
for those who know how i stand on what 1 Corinthians 13:10 & 12 mean is because of this:
here's what the real writing of Paul states:
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:
here's why i don't trust the Modern Versions because they are not translated from the Greek itself:
To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done
Feb 18, 2019 — Erasmus' reconstruction of this passage, however, does not match up with any Greek manuscripts at several points
Mar 9, 2019 — The Textus Receptus was clearly made unreliable by errors or alterations by being changed from the original form of the Greek New Testament.
^
***anyone following the Textus Receptus will NEVER discover the truth on any major Scripture point since Erasmus [[((ADMITTED))]] to creating a Greek Text by translating the Latin Vulgate into Greek, which does not even match the original Greek to Latin!***
here's what the real writing of Paul states:
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:
here's why i don't trust the Modern Versions because they are not translated from the Greek itself:
To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done
Feb 18, 2019 — Erasmus' reconstruction of this passage, however, does not match up with any Greek manuscripts at several points
Mar 9, 2019 — The Textus Receptus was clearly made unreliable by errors or alterations by being changed from the original form of the Greek New Testament.
^
***anyone following the Textus Receptus will NEVER discover the truth on any major Scripture point since Erasmus [[((ADMITTED))]] to creating a Greek Text by translating the Latin Vulgate into Greek, which does not even match the original Greek to Latin!***
Could you present some evidence that there are some problems with these passages or these particular verses? If you are talking about the three that bear witness in I John, I get it. But this passage?
If you do not like Textus Receptus, I have a website here with the Byzantine text, and also a site with the Byzantine Text. I don't see a single word difference between the two texts for verses 10 and 12.
https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=Byz|reference=1Cor.13
https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/textus_receptus_king_james/1_corinthians/fcor13.htm
If you do not like Textus Receptus, I have a website here with the Byzantine text, and also a site with the Byzantine Text. I don't see a single word difference between the two texts for verses 10 and 12.
https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=Byz|reference=1Cor.13
https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/textus_receptus_king_james/1_corinthians/fcor13.htm
Dr. Victor Wierwille (founder of "THE WAY International") for a "donation of $400 (as I recall from 1970). would teach you to "Speak in Tongues" , "Interpret Tongues", and Speak Prophesy on cue. It was all as phony s a three-dollar bill, but "WAYFERS" as we used to call folks from "The WAY", with some practice, could do it seamlessly. His OTHER favorite doctrine was that NOTHING that you did in the FLESH, had any effect on your SPIRIT, or status before God. Since new Knoxville, Ohio (Way Headquarters) was the next town over from where I lived, we all learned that it was a BAD IDEA to do business with "Wayfers".
i don't hate the KJV Bible. i own a Dake's KJV and have worn it out over the years. but i want the absolute Truth!
the original language the New Testament was written in was Greek. today, we have [direct] Greek to English translations.
the KJV by Erasmus' own Admittance, he did not go back to the Greek but short cutted and created a New Greek by translating the Greek to Latin into a different Greek. it's so different over 251 Verses do not match and over 1,000 more words were added. it is NOT the true Word of God! Erasmus Admitted this! the KJV is nowhere close to being close to the True Inspired Words of God!
are you calling Erasmus a liar?
To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done
the original language the New Testament was written in was Greek. today, we have [direct] Greek to English translations.
the KJV by Erasmus' own Admittance, he did not go back to the Greek but short cutted and created a New Greek by translating the Greek to Latin into a different Greek. it's so different over 251 Verses do not match and over 1,000 more words were added. it is NOT the true Word of God! Erasmus Admitted this! the KJV is nowhere close to being close to the True Inspired Words of God!
are you calling Erasmus a liar?
To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done
people have sold their tears, sweat, blood, fake anointing, get rich quick scheme, we are little gods, one False Doctrine after another. there's a Special Place in Hell for all of them if they do not Repent! but that does not make Speaking in Tongues false. nor does it mean you don't reap what ye sow and doing it by God's Plan you could be Blessed extraordinary by God. it just means SATAN has infiltrated the Church and the stupid will always be suckers for him!
And yet what he "produced" is as GOOD a Bible as there is. TRUE the language is archaic, but the message IS THE SAME. The "ABSOLUTE TRUTH comes from the HOLY SPIRIT whom Jesus sent us to guide us into truth, and if we lack wisdom, JUST ASK (single mindedly) and He'll share liberally.
But HEY!!! read a different translation if that "lights your fire". THE BEST TRANSLATION is still the one you'll actually READ.
But HEY!!! read a different translation if that "lights your fire". THE BEST TRANSLATION is still the one you'll actually READ.
tell me something, please, if you would kindly so.
i will give you 2 translations.
tell me if you can see that the meaning itself has changed by what Erasmus has done:
the more authentic 4th Century Greek:
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:
what Erasmus presented:
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
for me, there is 2 different meanings between these Versions when it should be the SAME.
i will give you 2 translations.
tell me if you can see that the meaning itself has changed by what Erasmus has done:
the more authentic 4th Century Greek:
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:
what Erasmus presented:
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
for me, there is 2 different meanings between these Versions when it should be the SAME.
You are mistaken. The 4th century Greek, whatever manuscript you refer to, was in Greek, not in English.
You are mistaken about this also. Erasmus wrote Greek in Greek also, not in English.
Why don't you show the Greek of the two versions you are talking about-- post them in here, and we can at least see the differences you are concerned about.
You are mistaken about this also. Erasmus wrote Greek in Greek also, not in English.
Why don't you show the Greek of the two versions you are talking about-- post them in here, and we can at least see the differences you are concerned about.
Textus Receptus
https://www.skypoint.com › members › waltzmn
To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done
https://www.skypoint.com › members › waltzmn
To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done
Erasmus' Manuscript of Revelation - The Text of the Gospels
https://www.thetextofthegospels.com › 2019/02 › erasm...
Feb 18, 2019 — Erasmus' reconstruction of this passage, however, does not match up with any Greek manuscripts at several points
Who Was Desiderius Erasmus and What Is the Textus ...
https://christianpublishinghouse.co › 2019/03/09 › desi...
Mar 9, 2019 — The Textus Receptus was clearly made unreliable by errors or alterations by being changed from the original form of the Greek New Testament.
https://www.thetextofthegospels.com › 2019/02 › erasm...
Feb 18, 2019 — Erasmus' reconstruction of this passage, however, does not match up with any Greek manuscripts at several points
Who Was Desiderius Erasmus and What Is the Textus ...
https://christianpublishinghouse.co › 2019/03/09 › desi...
Mar 9, 2019 — The Textus Receptus was clearly made unreliable by errors or alterations by being changed from the original form of the Greek New Testament.