Is Calvinism the truth?
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FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus taught that becoming His sheep is through faith in Him.
OK, so you don't believe that THE sheep become HIS sheep on the basis of faith, but rather your weird idea of being chosen.
If YOU would read the Bible carefully and properly, Eph 1:4 isn't even about salvation. It is about WHO God chose for service. And in the case of Eph 1:4, the "us" is clearly defined by Paul in v.19 by "us who believe".
You seem allergic to the idea that Jesus eternally saves on the basis of faith in Him.
On what basis does God "quicken them"?
Jesus taught that becoming His sheep is through faith in Him.
OK, so you don't believe that THE sheep become HIS sheep on the basis of faith, but rather your weird idea of being chosen.
If YOU would read the Bible carefully and properly, Eph 1:4 isn't even about salvation. It is about WHO God chose for service. And in the case of Eph 1:4, the "us" is clearly defined by Paul in v.19 by "us who believe".
You seem allergic to the idea that Jesus eternally saves on the basis of faith in Him.
On what basis does God "quicken them"?
Before anyone can become a sheep of Christ, he is simply a sinner on his way to Hell. Therefore every person needs to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only after that that people become children of God through the New Birth via the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The real issue is whether salvation is offered to absolutely everyone. And since the Bible says that this is true, you have been perverting the Gospel of Christ by claiming that salvation is only for the so-called "elect". That is FALSE DOCTRINE and "another gospel".
The real issue is whether salvation is offered to absolutely everyone. And since the Bible says that this is true, you have been perverting the Gospel of Christ by claiming that salvation is only for the so-called "elect". That is FALSE DOCTRINE and "another gospel".
John 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (his sheep that he choose before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4) I should lose nothing, but should raise it (his sheep) up again at the last day (Jesus's promise to his sheep).
Matt 25:32-34 - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
First of all, The unregenerate person will not repent of breaking a spiritual of a spiritual God that he cannot discern, and thinks it is foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). God's elect sheep were in the same shape, being unregenerate (Eph 2:3) until God quickens them together with Christ (Eph 2:5). I believe that you have the cart before the horse.
FreeGrace2 said:
So you seem to acknowledge that Jesus promised of being delivered (meaning saved eternally). So, please explain to the best of your ability what Jesus promised for Him to save anyone eternally.
From your "word choice" about how a person is saved eternally, your answer is simply, in so many words, God chooses before He created the world those He would "give" His Son.
So then, there is nothing any person can do to be saved. It was all determined before the foundation of the world. By the time people are born, their eternal destiny has already been chosen or determined.
Interesting. Then Paul's answer to the jailer about what he MUST DO to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ was totally wrong.
If that jailer had asked someone of your confusion, he would have been told, "well, there isn't anything you can do. It was already decided before God created the world."
What absurdity!! You really do not understand the Bible. But you have "cleverly" figured out how to get out of your theological hole by redefining all the verses about soul salvation and changing them to only mean deliverance from temporal dangers.
Every verse I quoted to you was about eternal soul salvation. And every one of them included believing in Jesus Christ.
You are turning the Bible on its head. I hope everyone who reads your posts sees your error.
So you seem to acknowledge that Jesus promised of being delivered (meaning saved eternally). So, please explain to the best of your ability what Jesus promised for Him to save anyone eternally.
From your "word choice" about how a person is saved eternally, your answer is simply, in so many words, God chooses before He created the world those He would "give" His Son.
So then, there is nothing any person can do to be saved. It was all determined before the foundation of the world. By the time people are born, their eternal destiny has already been chosen or determined.
Interesting. Then Paul's answer to the jailer about what he MUST DO to be saved was to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ was totally wrong.
If that jailer had asked someone of your confusion, he would have been told, "well, there isn't anything you can do. It was already decided before God created the world."
What absurdity!! You really do not understand the Bible. But you have "cleverly" figured out how to get out of your theological hole by redefining all the verses about soul salvation and changing them to only mean deliverance from temporal dangers.
Every verse I quoted to you was about eternal soul salvation. And every one of them included believing in Jesus Christ.
You are turning the Bible on its head. I hope everyone who reads your posts sees your error.
This is rich coming from the person who has been putting the cart before the horse daily. You have the ABSURD notion that people receive the Holy Spirit before they repent and believe. The apostles Peter and Paul would laugh at your foolishness. And the Lord Jesus Christ would tell you to stop perverting His Gospel.
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Eternal deliverance (salvation) is not an offering to anyone, unless you are misinterpreting scripture.
Christ did not die on the cross to pay for the sins of all mankind, only to those that God gave him, (John 6:39) which was God's chosen sheep before he formed the world, an predetermined that Jesus Christ would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:4-5)
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The One who gives the options, He only has free Sovereign will. Man is so wicked that if he had freewill he would say to God "I choose neither of Your options ... but I refuse to die, I refuse to take the consequences"
That's how the devil tricked us in the first place, he said "you will not die" in other words "you can do as you like, it's your freewill"
The doctrine of human freewill is that deception.
That's how the devil tricked us in the first place, he said "you will not die" in other words "you can do as you like, it's your freewill"
The doctrine of human freewill is that deception.
You sound just like those, documented, critics of Jesus when he preached the same doctrine for 21 years of his life here on earth. some, being his own disciples.
John 6:60 - Many therefore of his own disciples, when they heard this, said, this is an hard saying, who can hear it?
Mark 4:11 - And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables.
Jo
John 6:60 - Many therefore of his own disciples, when they heard this, said, this is an hard saying, who can hear it?
Mark 4:11 - And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables.
Jo
Sure. Then we're just puppets who gets our strings pulled by God. What absurdity.
More sheer absurdity.
2 Cor 5:14,15,19 all clearly say that Christ died for everyone.
Heb 2:9 clearly says that Christ died for everyone.
1 Tim 2:3-6 tells us that God wants everyone to be saved. (eternal soul salvation).
[QIUOTE]only to those that God gave him, (John 6:39)[/QUOTE]
How about we look at the whole context:
John 6-
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
v.39 establishes the subject being soul salvation, not being saved from stubbing a toe.
v.40 refutes your unbiblical claims; only those who believe in the Son "shall have eternal life".
v.41-43 are comments from the crowd.
v.44 (Calvinists' favorite) Only those the Father draws people to Jesus will be resurrected.
Here is the clincher:
Only those who listen and learn from the Father will "come to Me". Those who have listened and learned are believers. They are the ones who come to Jesus.
Your theology, or whatever it is, does not come from the Bible.
which was God's chosen sheep before he formed the world, an predetermined that Jesus Christ would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:4-5)[/QUOTE]
More sheer absurdity.
2 Cor 5:14,15,19 all clearly say that Christ died for everyone.
Heb 2:9 clearly says that Christ died for everyone.
1 Tim 2:3-6 tells us that God wants everyone to be saved. (eternal soul salvation).
[QIUOTE]only to those that God gave him, (John 6:39)[/QUOTE]
How about we look at the whole context:
John 6-
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
v.39 establishes the subject being soul salvation, not being saved from stubbing a toe.
v.40 refutes your unbiblical claims; only those who believe in the Son "shall have eternal life".
v.41-43 are comments from the crowd.
v.44 (Calvinists' favorite) Only those the Father draws people to Jesus will be resurrected.
Here is the clincher:
Only those who listen and learn from the Father will "come to Me". Those who have listened and learned are believers. They are the ones who come to Jesus.
Your theology, or whatever it is, does not come from the Bible.
which was God's chosen sheep before he formed the world, an predetermined that Jesus Christ would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:4-5)[/QUOTE]
In the Greek, genders much match to be related in a sentence.
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace (feminine) you have been saved (masculine), through faith (feminine)--and this (neuter) is not from yourselves, it is the gift (masculine) of God--
So you see, grace and faith are feminine while salvation and God's gift are masculine.
So the gift CANNOT be "faith". Impossible in the Greek. Check it out for yourself at biblehub.com.
The gospel is NOT a spiritual issue. It is a trust issue.
Acts 14:23 - Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
The bolded words refer to those who believed in Jesus Christ. Putting their trust in Christ means to trust in His work on the cross for salvation.
Yes it is.
Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. Very clear. God offers the promise of salvation and saves those who believe His promise.
The Bible has many verses that plainly say that people refuse to believe and refuse to repent.
Are you not aware that in order to REFUSE to do something clearly implies the ABILITY to do it?
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace (feminine) you have been saved (masculine), through faith (feminine)--and this (neuter) is not from yourselves, it is the gift (masculine) of God--
So you see, grace and faith are feminine while salvation and God's gift are masculine.
So the gift CANNOT be "faith". Impossible in the Greek. Check it out for yourself at biblehub.com.
The gospel is NOT a spiritual issue. It is a trust issue.
Acts 14:23 - Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
The bolded words refer to those who believed in Jesus Christ. Putting their trust in Christ means to trust in His work on the cross for salvation.
Yes it is.
Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. Very clear. God offers the promise of salvation and saves those who believe His promise.
The Bible has many verses that plainly say that people refuse to believe and refuse to repent.
Are you not aware that in order to REFUSE to do something clearly implies the ABILITY to do it?